{"show":"David Senra","title":"Travis Kalanick, Founder of Uber & Atoms","date":"2026-08-16T08:00:00.000Z","url":"https://transcriptosaur.com/e/david-senra/travis-kalanick-founder-of-uber-atoms","audio":"https://crgcigsh7ux7bpo1.public.blob.vercel-storage.com/trex-audio/david-senra/c9217642-992f-11f1-aa5d-0b1dc93c48d7/1.mp3","speakers":[{"label":"speaker_0","name":"David Senra","role":"host","slug":"david-senra","bio":"David Senra is the creator and host of Founders, a podcast he launched in 2016 that distills lessons from biographies of entrepreneurs and business leaders. His work focuses on how founders build companies, make decisions and approach competition. He also hosts David Senra, an interview podcast featuring in-depth, face-to-face conversations with company founders."},{"label":"speaker_1","name":"Travis Kalanick","role":"guest","slug":"travis-kalanick","bio":"Travis Kalanick co-founded Uber and served as its CEO from 2010 to 2017, leading its expansion into a global ride-hailing business. Earlier, he co-founded Red Swoosh, a peer-to-peer content-delivery company acquired by Akamai in 2007. He is now founder and CEO of Atoms, which grew out of his CloudKitchens business and develops industrial AI and robotics for food, mining, and transportation."}],"highlights":[{"tier":"operating","rank":1,"point":"Put each solved problem into the playbook until decisions that once took hours of founder attention can happen in minutes without the founder.","short":"Turn solved problems into a playbook so decisions stop needing the founder.","context":"Travis Kalanick describes how Uber's city-launch pricing reviews became routine enough for him to stop attending.","category":"business","startMs":6312840,"endMs":6339480,"videoStartMs":6312960,"videoEndMs":6339680,"quote":"So in the first twenty cities, I was on a pricing call. In some of those cities, man, it would be like eight pricing calls. It could be like eight hours, ten hours of pricing calls before we launched London, as an example. But I never solved the same problem twice. Once we solved it, then it became part of the playbook, and eventually we get to s-city twenty and that pricing call takes five minutes. I stopped going to them. Didn't matter anymore.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":792},{"tier":"operating","rank":2,"point":"Before adding an initiative, forecast the management load it will create months later and whether the team can absorb it.","short":"Forecast each initiative's management load months ahead; check capacity.","context":"Travis Kalanick explains why expansion can create problems that only arrive in force six months later.","category":"business","startMs":184520,"endMs":231960,"videoStartMs":184640,"videoEndMs":231200,"quote":"So you wanna create interesting things to solve. You wanna create problems to solve. You have to predict well the nature of the problem and your ability and capacity to solve it. You create a problem today, you may not understand the nature of the problem-solving you're gonna have to do. You have to predict it, and those problems start coming ashore in like six months in like a real heavy way, and maybe even longer. And so you have to be good at predicting what it's the nature of that problem and saying, \"Okay, well, what is my m-management capacity to solve it?\" If that equation gets out of balance, then you have to stop problem creation while you get the solving going so that you're not drowning anymore, right?","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":9},{"tier":"operating","rank":3,"point":"Keep competing investors in the fundraising process, because accepting the first term sheet can invite escalating demands and delay or kill the deal.","short":"Keep investors competing; taking the first term sheet can slow or kill the deal.","context":"Travis Kalanick explains why founders should commit to a fundraising process rather than a target valuation.","category":"business","startMs":3653672,"endMs":3689060,"videoStartMs":3652480,"videoEndMs":3689359,"quote":"And yeah, I have a whole philosophy on this, which is, like, if you want a round to go well and to go fast, you have to have a process. If you just go take the first term sheet- Getting the round done will actually take longer because there's no alternatives. You don't have alternatives, and then it gets weird. And then the VC will just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, push- getting more and more and more and more, and it gets weird to a point where it actually becomes highly likely that the deal just blows up. So I like to say, \"Never get attached to a price, I get attached to a process.\" That process is about excellence in fundraising.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":512},{"tier":"operating","rank":4,"point":"A small challenger can make an incumbent spend many times more defending market share than the challenger spends attacking it.","short":"A small challenger can make a larger rival spend far more defending its share.","context":"Travis Kalanick explains how a smaller ride-hailing rival can use discounted fares against Uber's larger network.","category":"business","startMs":1489682,"endMs":1545862,"videoStartMs":1489600,"videoEndMs":1546479,"quote":"Okay, so there's a couple things. First is a small player competing against Uber has certain advantages. Let's say a small player said, \"I'm going to have cheaper rides than the big player.\" Okay? The small player, let's say, is 1/10 the size, let's just say. Their subsidies on an absolute basis are somewhere around 1/10 as much. So if I am the small guy and I go and subsidize rides, I'm gonna gain market share unless the big guy is spending 10 times as much as me. Now, the efficiency edge can make it instead of 10X, can make it 7X. Mm-hmm. Okay? But you, you ultimately ... A, a well-funded competitor, you have to let them grow to some degree so that they, they have to feel the weight of the size of what they are, so when they're subsidizing, it becomes a problem.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":141},{"tier":"operating","rank":5,"point":"Use purpose-built machines for high-volume work and humanoid robots for varied tasks in spaces designed for people.","short":"Use specialized robots for volume; humanoids for varied tasks in human spaces.","context":"Travis Kalanick contrasts industrial pancake production with cooking and other chores in a home.","category":"business","startMs":5287280,"endMs":5365740,"videoStartMs":5287199,"videoEndMs":5369120,"quote":"So now you need a machine that can do many different types of things in the home. So it needs to fold clothes, it needs to take out the trash, probably needs to wash dishes. There's like a bunch of things. But that's a very generalized thing. It has to be able to do a lot of different things, and it's in a very human environment. The best form factor is a humanoid for this thing. But I'll bring up the thousand pancakes an hour. Imagine a humanoid making pancakes. Well, it would make it like a human. It would be like, Okay? And by the way, if you were just making pancakes at a home once a week on a Sunday, because you need a machine that can do many different things, including make pancakes, it's all good. But if you needed to do a thousand an hour, you'd probably need like, I don't know, a hundred humanoids in a row doing this, right? Versus a very simple iron apparatus where the batter gets pushed into it, it's hot already, and it's pushing out like maybe even like a hundred pancakes every few minutes. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So specialized robotics, uh, specialized, uh, machines that are specialized for the task at hand is sort of how I look at what we do.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":707},{"tier":"operating","rank":6,"point":"Challenge supposedly mandatory deal terms: Uber was told to give a Chinese partner 50% but ultimately gave Baidu, China's search giant, about 7%.","short":"Question mandatory terms: Uber gave its China partner about 7%, not 50%.","context":"Travis Kalanick recounts finding a local partner to help Uber navigate regulatory pressure in China.","category":"business","startMs":971546,"endMs":1041226,"videoStartMs":971440,"videoEndMs":1044800,"quote":"When we first went to China, everybody told us that we needed a partner, and they'll just tell you that, and we're like, \"What is a partner?\" They're like, \"Well, that person or that entity has like fifty percent of your company in China.\" I go, \"Why? Is this a law?\" They're like, \"No, but if you don't do it, you're totally screwed.\" And I just never got it. Nobody could tell me why and why I had to. I just said, \"I'm gonna just try it. Screw it.\" Which is like, again, Apple, Tesla, these guys said, \"Screw it,\" and they just did it. Yeah. Right? And we eventually did get a partner, but instead of giving up fifty percent, we gave up, I think it was seven percent, and it was to Baidu. But it was because we were getting massive regulatory heat, and as long as we had a partner by our side, we could be Chinese. Yeah. Right? And like, this is like when you start meeting with ministers in China, you know, like at the top, at the highest level, you have to be vouched for by somebody in China, or things get-- start to get weird. And that's what the seven percent is for? That's what the seven percent was for. Got it. Baidu needed... We needed a partner inside China that was trusted, essentially.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":86},{"tier":"character","rank":1,"point":"Do not let resilience become acceptance of what is wrong; preserve the indignation that makes you fix it.","short":"Don't let resilience turn into accepting problems you should fix.","context":"Travis Kalanick says almost nothing stresses him anymore and worries about losing the motivation to correct wrongs.","category":"life","startMs":2919250,"endMs":2968580,"videoStartMs":2918960,"videoEndMs":2970000,"quote":"I'm just saying once you fully embody the lifestyle of adversity and overcoming it, you have to be careful of the ease at which you walk through it because there is an extra power in being bothered by something that is wrong. You can get too used to wrong things happening Have you reached to that point in your career before? Well, no, I, I, I would say today there are very few things that actually stress me out. Are you worried about that? Of course. So I remember the things that are important, and that's where I channel fierceness through, what is right and what is wrong.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":382},{"tier":"character","rank":2,"point":"Reexamine the habits that helped you survive scarcity before applying them to a company that no longer faces the same threats.","short":"Revisit survival habits when your company outgrows the threats that shaped them.","context":"Travis Kalanick traces running a $70 billion Uber to earlier startup years without a salary or reliable grocery money.","category":"business","startMs":4884788,"endMs":4961908,"videoStartMs":4884960,"videoEndMs":4962080,"quote":"Um, and it comes from what I did before Uber, which was I was doing a really hard startup. First four years, no salary, ran out of money several times. Like, super grind, like, lose all friends. Like, everything's ... I, it was just the hardest kind of ... I, I like to say the non-luckiest entrepreneur journey of all time You can't call it unlucky, I eventually sold, but like, you definitely would never call it lucky, that's for damn sure. But basically, it was so hard that I had to be sort of epically precise and hardcore just to pay the bills and go to the grocery store next week. And that precision and intensity made Uber what it was, but I was running a $70 billion company the way somebody who thought he was gonna starve next week would run it That is fascinating Like, super intense precision, perfection, obsession because he's not sure that he's gonna be able to pay the grocery bill next week","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":648},{"tier":"character","rank":3,"point":"After a damaging conflict, ask what part you played in creating it before settling into a victim mentality.","short":"After a damaging conflict, examine your own role in creating it.","context":"Asked how to avoid another investor conflict like Uber's, Travis Kalanick starts with personal responsibility.","category":"life","startMs":4732388,"endMs":4747648,"videoStartMs":4732400,"videoEndMs":4747760,"quote":"Yeah, you have to also be careful. Like, um, there can be... You gotta be really careful not to get into victim mentality, and what I mean by that is what was my part in that, in that dynamic, right?","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":635},{"tier":"character","rank":4,"point":"Choose a business idea that fits who you are, not merely one that looks like a good opportunity.","short":"Choose a business idea that fits you, not just a promising opportunity.","context":"Asked why food automation became the next venture, Travis Kalanick describes choosing an idea as finding a business soulmate.","category":"life","startMs":5510252,"endMs":5556092,"videoStartMs":5508719,"videoEndMs":5557280,"quote":"You know, I, I like to say, like I have lots of ideas all the time. I mean, I, I'm an idea factory. Mm. But other people have great ideas too. But like an idea comes to you or comes to you, if that makes sense. And I like to say, you know, you go out on a date with the idea, like, was it a good date? Did it, did it go well? Like, how did you and the idea get along? And it's very much related to, like who are you is going to be a big part of which idea works for you. You call this finding your sport. Yeah, finding your sport or your business soulmate. Mm-hmm. Be in touch with who you are, and then when the right idea comes your way, you just know. You just know.","speaker":"Travis Kalanick","segmentIdx":722}],"segments":[{"idx":0,"startMs":2720,"endMs":3480,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I wanna start with Adams.","isAd":false},{"idx":1,"startMs":3780,"endMs":3900,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":2,"startMs":4460,"endMs":23360,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You have this great line on the website that I actually love. It's this awesome sentence. It says, \"Physical world autonomy requires AI for the physical world. This kind of intelligence requires computation we haven't invented, at an efficiency we can't yet fathom, with deep learning models to understand and act in the physical world that don't yet exist.\" Tell us what you're building.","isAd":false},{"idx":3,"startMs":24140,"endMs":68020,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Let's start with the mission. It's easier that way. Physical automation to transform industries. So you start there. You can sort of go, it's almost Socratic, like what does that mean? And sort of in the terms that people use today, it's physical AI and robotics to transform industry. And you go, \"Okay, well, uh, so what is it, a humanoid?\" And no, it's not. It's not-- It's-- I, I, I wouldn't call myself anti-humanoid, it's just what we're doing is not that. It's specialized robotics, that it's not like we make robotics and anybody can have some. It's more like robotics and AI that go after an industry, one industry at a time.","isAd":false},{"idx":4,"startMs":69040,"endMs":86860,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And in the industries, we think it makes massive moves, big moves. And once we get our sea legs, we go to the next, and the next. If you're doing it really well, I, I like to say that, um, the only constraint on our imagination is management capacity.","isAd":false},{"idx":5,"startMs":87440,"endMs":87880,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What does that mean?","isAd":false},{"idx":6,"startMs":88720,"endMs":113240,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"We're solving problems every day. If I have to solve lots of small problems 'cause I don't have a lot of management capacity under me, we're not gonna do very much. I'm gonna be constrained in what portion of my imagination can become possible, like real. But if you have lots of management capacity, lots of problem-solving capacity, then those constraints unwind.","isAd":false},{"idx":7,"startMs":113520,"endMs":116080,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So how do you broaden and expand the management capacity you have?","isAd":false},{"idx":8,"startMs":117080,"endMs":161640,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay, so why don't we step back and talk a little bit about-- Like, I have a lot of, uh, frameworks for this kind of stuff. One of them I, I call the meta problem. Imagine if you had this equation, which is, uh, the derivative of problem-solving DT, uh, must always be greater than or equal to the derivative of problem creation DT. And if that's ever not true, you have a real problem. I call that the meta problem. So what's happening is, is that if you are creating problems faster than you can solve them, then you're kinda effed.","isAd":false},{"idx":9,"startMs":162480,"endMs":204500,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But when you create problems, like in an Uber context would be like, \"Let's go to China,\" that's creating a problem, right? Now, the way I think about problems, I don't think about them in a negative way. I think about problems the way like a math professor would think about a problem, is a math professor without interesting problems to solve is a sad math professor. You know? So it's like a good thing. So you wanna create interesting things to solve. You wanna create problems to solve. You have to predict well the nature of the problem and your ability and capacity to solve it. You create a problem today, you may not understand the nature of the problem-solving you're gonna have to do. You have to predict it,","isAd":false},{"idx":10,"startMs":205320,"endMs":231960,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"and those problems start coming ashore in like six months in like a real heavy way, and maybe even longer. And so you have to be good at predicting what it's the nature of that problem and saying, \"Okay, well, what is my m-management capacity to solve it?\" If that equation gets out of balance, then you have to stop problem creation while you get the solving going so that you're not drowning anymore, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":11,"startMs":232020,"endMs":233840,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Can you give us an example of what happened in China then?","isAd":false},{"idx":12,"startMs":234800,"endMs":275920,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I mean, China was, like, amazing but very difficult and in some ways impossible to predict. Let's go to China. Sounds like fun. It was a, it was a, a super awesome adventure because what happened was is I was like, \"Sounds cool.\" And I got-- It was two thousand-- probably two thousand thirteen or early thirteen. Uber started in two thousand and ten, so it was still early crew. And I got a crew of folks, like super OG guys, and we stayed in an apartment in China for a week or two, a week and a half, two weeks, something like that, and met with everybody we could.","isAd":false},{"idx":13,"startMs":276000,"endMs":284900,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's actually when I first met Wan Xing, uh, at Meituan, actually. Um, and he told me I was crazy. \"Don't do it. It's the-\"","isAd":false},{"idx":14,"startMs":285020,"endMs":285240,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What was your-","isAd":false},{"idx":15,"startMs":285260,"endMs":286060,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"\"... worst idea ever.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":16,"startMs":286140,"endMs":289240,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What was your response when people tell you, \"You're crazy. It's not gonna work\"?","isAd":false},{"idx":17,"startMs":290040,"endMs":297020,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Like, that's the best thing ever. Okay? So I mean, we're-- there's many threads here. We're, we're already poking through a bunch of them.","isAd":false},{"idx":18,"startMs":297020,"endMs":298640,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"We're, we're gonna go everywhere, man. Let's go.","isAd":false},{"idx":19,"startMs":299220,"endMs":339720,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay. So in engineering, we call this BFS, breadth-first search, so I'm not able to go deep. We're like, we're painting the breadth of the tree before we're going deep. So, uh, we have a cultural value for that at Uber, and I've pulled it into our new value system at, into my value system at my current company. Uh, but it's called Super Pumped, which is about infectious enthusiasm about the hard things. The harder it is, the more weird, gnarly, whatever words, whatever superlative you wanna put in front of it, the more awesome it would be to solve it-","isAd":false},{"idx":20,"startMs":340100,"endMs":340280,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm","isAd":false},{"idx":21,"startMs":340280,"endMs":363240,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... the more excited I get. And the problems that are more awesome to solve are the ones that people think are, are impossible to solve. Sometimes people think something is impossible. They perceive it that way, but it's very possible, but it's actually easy. And there's other ones that people think are impossible that are super difficult, but possible.","isAd":false},{"idx":22,"startMs":363816,"endMs":365936,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's how you think about Adams now, right? When I hear you-","isAd":false},{"idx":23,"startMs":365996,"endMs":365996,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm","isAd":false},{"idx":24,"startMs":365996,"endMs":371376,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... speak about it and when I read about it, you're like, \"This is going to be super difficult, but it is possible.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":25,"startMs":371756,"endMs":407096,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So Adams is the name of my company. We just named it this. It came from a- a cr- a crazy obscure name that was done on purpose. We basically went ultra stealth. But the real question is, is coming out of Uber, what was the next thing and why? And it is Adams. We just started calling it that now. I was yearning or had a penchant for, an affinity for something that's super hard, super complicated.","isAd":false},{"idx":26,"startMs":407376,"endMs":415216,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Have you always been like that? Or was the exper- Like, was the experience of Uber that crystallized how important that was? When did this- this desire-","isAd":false},{"idx":27,"startMs":415276,"endMs":441996,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's alway- it's always been this way, which is, i- and I think it's funny how you got there because it's like that feeling when somebody tells you something that is impossible and you're like, \"Is that right?\" And that... And I'm like, \"Watch this.\" I've always had that. Like even when I was a kid, I'd always have a sparkle in my eye to do something somebody was like, \"Shit.\" That kind of thing.","isAd":false},{"idx":28,"startMs":442236,"endMs":451196,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Did you know at, when you started it, like how... There's no way you could've known like how difficult it was. Or did you like, \"This is a hairy problem. I'm gonna, there's, I'm gonna be fighting with every regulator\"?","isAd":false},{"idx":29,"startMs":451196,"endMs":453976,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No, there's a complexity, there's a complexity to it that was part of the attraction.","isAd":false},{"idx":30,"startMs":454336,"endMs":454536,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":31,"startMs":454736,"endMs":454736,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":32,"startMs":454756,"endMs":457016,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And you saw that from the, from the first spot?","isAd":false},{"idx":33,"startMs":457076,"endMs":460976,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, from the very early days, I knew it was complicated. I didn't understand exactly how it was complicated.","isAd":false},{"idx":34,"startMs":461176,"endMs":462996,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I'm very curious, what you said was very interesting.","isAd":false},{"idx":35,"startMs":463036,"endMs":463096,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":36,"startMs":463096,"endMs":464136,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You're creating all these problems.","isAd":false},{"idx":37,"startMs":464656,"endMs":464676,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":38,"startMs":464716,"endMs":467736,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Some of the problems you're creating are not coming ashore, I think is the word you used for-","isAd":false},{"idx":39,"startMs":467756,"endMs":471696,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It takes time to n- to see what the nature of the problem is that you created.","isAd":false},{"idx":40,"startMs":471976,"endMs":478336,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So can you give an example of like ch- a problem you're creating when you start in China, how long it takes to come ashore, and what happens when it does?","isAd":false},{"idx":41,"startMs":478496,"endMs":517916,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay. So what you learn when you go and do what we did in China is you learn that when you go and take your business and go to China, you have to start over. So many people think that you can take your business and take it somewhere, which by the way, Uber kinda like trademarked that, if there's such a thing. Like we made that a thing where like cities, countries didn't matter. We created a system that was inevitable, but China was different because of how that country works. Everything's different, and that means you have to start from scratch, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":42,"startMs":518636,"endMs":523656,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's like as something as simple as like, uh, the phones, uh, or let's say maps, GPS.","isAd":false},{"idx":43,"startMs":523996,"endMs":524176,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":44,"startMs":524336,"endMs":539956,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There's a different GPS system in China than there is here. What does that mean? Well, it's like different. So if I want to understand how cars are moving through space, I have to change my GPS system so I can do that-","isAd":false},{"idx":45,"startMs":540156,"endMs":540316,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm","isAd":false},{"idx":46,"startMs":540316,"endMs":576176,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... so I understand. And that's like one of like 100 things that are different in China, which means you have to start over. And so yeah, you're starting a new business when you take it to China, and you have to, you have to be in a very receptive like, \"I am going to learn how to do things differently in this very different place,\" and be excited and interested in how different it is. Whereas most entre- let's say Western entrepreneurs that go to China, that it almost none succeed.","isAd":false},{"idx":47,"startMs":576696,"endMs":577636,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Have any succeeded?","isAd":false},{"idx":48,"startMs":578496,"endMs":579456,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"At the top, like Apple.","isAd":false},{"idx":49,"startMs":580376,"endMs":580436,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":50,"startMs":580476,"endMs":594316,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I'd say the two that you would come up with in our area, in our neck of the woods, there are others, but like in our neck of the woods, you're like, okay, Elon definitely did, right? And Apple definitely did. Tim Apple and- ... and Elon, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":51,"startMs":595536,"endMs":595536,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":52,"startMs":595616,"endMs":597296,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right? Those are the two guys.","isAd":false},{"idx":53,"startMs":597676,"endMs":636796,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I wanna tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world, and one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning your cost. Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do exactly that. The median company running on Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise. And we see that in the Ramp data too. The median company running on Ramp also grows their revenue by 16%.","isAd":true},{"idx":54,"startMs":637056,"endMs":674796,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So when you're running your business on Ramp and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the only platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run their business on Ramp. I run my business on Ramp, and you should too. Go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. Deel is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool. I've been studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade, and one thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your most important priority.","isAd":true},{"idx":55,"startMs":675116,"endMs":711836,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"A players recognize other A players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, Eleven Labs, Uber, and DoorDash all use Deel. Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in Deel after using their product, and what they discovered is that Deel is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring. Deel will help your business hire, pay, and manage any worker anywhere in the world so you can retain the best talent anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you do best, delivering value to your customers. The founder of Eleven Labs has a great description of the value Deel can give your company. He said, \"We built Eleven Labs to break down language and communication barriers.","isAd":true},{"idx":56,"startMs":712156,"endMs":733096,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"With Deel enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world.\" Deel is trusted by over 40,000 businesses. Learn how they can help your business today by going to deel.com/senra. That is deel.com/senra.","isAd":true},{"idx":57,"startMs":733586,"endMs":738926,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So you start getting in this war with DiDi. Was there anybody else besides? Was there multiple competitors?","isAd":false},{"idx":58,"startMs":739546,"endMs":746866,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"We, um, we eventually rolled out. So Uber Black was one thing, much smaller than like a DiDi thing. There was another company called Kuaidi.","isAd":false},{"idx":59,"startMs":747206,"endMs":747366,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":60,"startMs":747746,"endMs":789506,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And we were just in this corner sort of doing a niche thing, which is a super high-end thing in China, which is like so niche, right? An S-class in China at that time is like very-- it's thin. I mean, we were growing, it was fun, but it was thin. But I think it was two thousand and fourteen, I believe it was fourteen eith- yeah, I believe it was fourteen, must have been, where we, we basically said, \"Okay, we're gonna do ridesharing in China.\" Nobody had done that. DiDi was taxis, and if anybody who's used a taxi app with taxis, the problem is you're a second-class citizen, meaning taxis want people to wave them down.","isAd":false},{"idx":61,"startMs":789866,"endMs":794946,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"They don't wanna take rides from an app where they have to give a percentage of the revenue to some middleman. That's not a thing.","isAd":false},{"idx":62,"startMs":795166,"endMs":795366,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":63,"startMs":795806,"endMs":811026,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So it sort of will f-fill in the gaps, but it's not their main jam. But we went to full rideshare, which is like peer-to-peer ridesharing where anybody driving a car could offer a ride to a citizen in the city.","isAd":false},{"idx":64,"startMs":811226,"endMs":813286,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Which before you did not exist at all in China.","isAd":false},{"idx":65,"startMs":813646,"endMs":815186,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Certainly not coordinated by an app.","isAd":false},{"idx":66,"startMs":815406,"endMs":815546,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":67,"startMs":815586,"endMs":832266,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"This is now a ridesharing pe-- what was at the time called peer-to-peer ridesharing. Think of, you know, some people would think of Lyft or UberX, this kind of thing in the US context. Uh, but what we called it was the people's Uber. And so in the app, you'd open it up, and it was red cars.","isAd":false},{"idx":68,"startMs":832806,"endMs":833006,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":69,"startMs":833286,"endMs":873946,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But we became Chinese. We had a sh-- a massive, awesome brand there because we cared and we were passionate about the user, uh, the customer in ways that these other companies just weren't. But what was interesting about what was going on with DiDi was that while we were in-inventing, innovating, they were copying. And these guys were so good at copying, it was kind of... It was almost an art form. To be able to copy as quickly and fiercely as they did was like warrior mentality in its own right.","isAd":false},{"idx":70,"startMs":874526,"endMs":882866,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But it was like, I like to say like the, the, the place to be is, is like, uh, Bra-Braveheart, which is like the warrior poet. These guys were just pure warriors.","isAd":false},{"idx":71,"startMs":882926,"endMs":883066,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":72,"startMs":883126,"endMs":895226,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There was no poetry. They weren't creating the new thing. They were copying when they were copying, but almost to a level of poetry in their ability to copy and the speed at which they were able to do it.","isAd":false},{"idx":73,"startMs":895626,"endMs":895846,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":74,"startMs":895886,"endMs":912506,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right? But while they were getting ready copying it, it was a very wild, sort of half technology, half regulatory arbitrage. Very bold. It took them a while to copy, and while that happened, it went vertical.","isAd":false},{"idx":75,"startMs":913486,"endMs":913986,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Uber did?","isAd":false},{"idx":76,"startMs":914026,"endMs":939666,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, Uber did. And I'd say als- like so vertical it almost leaned to the left. Like it almost started bending. The curve almost bent to the left, okay? And, um, that was what it was. The opportunity was massive, where we would basically, at some point, probably our top ten cities were all Chinese cities.","isAd":false},{"idx":77,"startMs":940086,"endMs":940806,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's wild.","isAd":false},{"idx":78,"startMs":941046,"endMs":941686,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"In rides.","isAd":false},{"idx":79,"startMs":941946,"endMs":942146,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":80,"startMs":942206,"endMs":952946,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Not in revenue, because the rides instead of like at the... in my day, thirteen bucks, fifteen bucks, whatever, they were... these were like three bucks-","isAd":false},{"idx":81,"startMs":953106,"endMs":953166,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm","isAd":false},{"idx":82,"startMs":953166,"endMs":966526,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... two bucks type stuff, right? I remember we were doing this fundraise in China. We had to raise money in China because we... I mean, it was a huge... I mean, it was just pulling a huge amount of money.","isAd":false},{"idx":83,"startMs":967086,"endMs":968146,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You mean you were burning a ton of money?","isAd":false},{"idx":84,"startMs":968166,"endMs":969186,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"We were burning a lot of money.","isAd":false},{"idx":85,"startMs":969346,"endMs":969506,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":86,"startMs":969606,"endMs":1002446,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But also we needed a partner. When we first went to China, everybody told us that we needed a partner, and they'll just tell you that, and we're like, \"What is a partner?\" They're like, \"Well, that person or that entity has like fifty percent of your company in China.\" I go, \"Why? Is this a law?\" They're like, \"No, but if you don't do it, you're totally screwed.\" And I just never got it. Nobody could tell me why and why I had to. I just said, \"I'm gonna just try it. Screw it.\" Which is like, again, Apple, Tesla, these guys said, \"Screw it,\" and they just did it.","isAd":false},{"idx":87,"startMs":1002706,"endMs":1002866,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":88,"startMs":1002906,"endMs":1019686,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right? And we eventually did get a partner, but instead of giving up fifty percent, we gave up, I think it was seven percent, and it was to Baidu. But it was because we were getting massive regulatory heat, and as long as we had a partner by our side, we could be Chinese.","isAd":false},{"idx":89,"startMs":1019966,"endMs":1020166,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":90,"startMs":1020626,"endMs":1033466,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right? And like, this is like when you start meeting with ministers in China, you know, like at the top, at the highest level, you have to be vouched for by somebody in China, or things get-- start to get weird.","isAd":false},{"idx":91,"startMs":1033786,"endMs":1034966,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And that's what the seven percent is for?","isAd":false},{"idx":92,"startMs":1035506,"endMs":1036706,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's what the seven percent was for.","isAd":false},{"idx":93,"startMs":1036746,"endMs":1037046,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Got it.","isAd":false},{"idx":94,"startMs":1037606,"endMs":1077446,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Baidu needed... We needed a partner inside China that was trusted, essentially. But like I remember, you know, right around the time that we got that partner, you know, we of course were doing this, and there was a, a strike, a, a pan-European strike for all taxis in all European cities. And at some point, I think there were like, I think this is fifteen, I believe, two thousand and fifteen, uh, July, I think. Um, you know, there were vehicles being lit on fire in Paris, you know.","isAd":false},{"idx":95,"startMs":1078486,"endMs":1084206,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But it was like every major city and they just tried to shut the shit down. And-","isAd":false},{"idx":96,"startMs":1084286,"endMs":1085126,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What are they protesting?","isAd":false},{"idx":97,"startMs":1086686,"endMs":1127402,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Progress. So I'm going and meeting with the, the transportation minister in China, and he throws down three newspapers, Western newspapers that- Top of the fold, old school newspapers, right? Remember those? Okay. Pictures of this chaos across all these cities, and he's like, \"This is a problem. Uh, this is not gonna... You know, this is not something we're okay with.\" And I said, \"Why?\" And, you know, there's obvious...","isAd":false},{"idx":98,"startMs":1127642,"endMs":1171542,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I knew what I, you know, I knew what he was gonna say, and I said, \"But this is all Western democracies.\" And I'm like, \"In Western democracy i- it is we know is a, it's a popularity contest, um, and what that means is that the, the politician succeeds by being popular. He doesn't succeed when progress comes, and the only way to get progress in a democracy is for that, for that politician who seeks to be popular when he's under threat. When there is a threat of","isAd":false},{"idx":99,"startMs":1172962,"endMs":1209062,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"disruption or instability is the only time you'll get progress in Western democracy.\" And I'm like, \"But so what? We're here in China, and it's totally different.\" He goes, \"What do you mean?\" And I'm like, \"Well, the only time I get... I'm able to get progress in China is when, uh, stability is in harmony with progress.\" So... Or, or let's say progress, y- those two must be harmonized.","isAd":false},{"idx":100,"startMs":1209202,"endMs":1209262,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":101,"startMs":1209282,"endMs":1221602,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You will only get progress when it is in harmony with stability. And I said it in that way, those three words, and that was very Chinese.","isAd":false},{"idx":102,"startMs":1222102,"endMs":1222262,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":103,"startMs":1222482,"endMs":1252162,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You know? And totally different. It's like I'm like, \"If there was ever any hint of instability that we were to bring to China, we would be shut down immediately. But as long as we create a foundation of stability, progress is super welcome.\" Progress must be in harmony with stability, and totally different.","isAd":false},{"idx":104,"startMs":1253122,"endMs":1260262,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So when do they take the viewpoint, if they took the viewpoint, that Uber is injecting instability into their city or area?","isAd":false},{"idx":105,"startMs":1260582,"endMs":1261422,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"They never did.","isAd":false},{"idx":106,"startMs":1262322,"endMs":1262442,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":107,"startMs":1262662,"endMs":1303962,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But they at some point felt like we were, we may win. And instead of really seeing super problems at the... We didn't... For the most part, we were treated fairly at the cities, for the most part, not completely, but for the most part. But what happened was the... I, what I would ca- what I'd say at the time is that the China war went global. So we were spending, let's say, tens of millions of dollars a month fighting Didi in all these cities, and the fight was like, uh, I needed to subsidize rides-","isAd":false},{"idx":108,"startMs":1304222,"endMs":1304322,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm","isAd":false},{"idx":109,"startMs":1304322,"endMs":1347942,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... to gain market share. When I gain market share, there's network effect because if I'm bigger, then my system is more efficient, and if I'm more efficient than them, they have to subsidize more than I do to compete with me. So how do I subsidize where, when, how to get that efficiency edge, that network effect efficiency edge so that I subsidize less than them? This is why, you know, like, Lyft is smaller than Uber, because we were better at this part of this, the thing, and people don't really know that's what it takes. It's... But, like, how do you get efficiency edge?","isAd":false},{"idx":110,"startMs":1348022,"endMs":1388202,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Efficiency edge starts when somebody even downloads the app and signs up. If it's easier to sign up on one versus another, you have an efficiency edge. If it's easier to call a vehicle and, like, get it to you without problems, you have an efficiency edge 'cause you'll have less support. You'll have less... Like, people are getting their higher completion rates. Like, if the cars are moving to where the demand is because they, the driver app has good sort of ways to point drivers to the right place, that means you have shorter pickup time. Efficiency edge. Efficiency edge means you get bigger faster.","isAd":false},{"idx":111,"startMs":1388862,"endMs":1431462,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You get bigger faster means you have a bigger network of drivers, which means wherever you are in the city, you are gonna get a faster pickup, um, and it will be cheaper because, well, if there's less dead time for the driver to pick you up than if he's generally trying to optimize for dollars per hour, then, then the whole thing just starts working better. That's the network effect. So you're like, \"Okay, how do I get bigger?\" Well, I'll make the rides really cheap. That's one way of doing it. And if your rides are cheaper than them, then all of a sudden your network gets bigger. Your network gives you efficiency, which then means you can get to a lower price point without subsidies that the competitor still has to subsidize.","isAd":false},{"idx":112,"startMs":1431542,"endMs":1438482,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You'd make money, uh, profit at a p- a place where they would make a loss and... The robber barons all understood this.","isAd":false},{"idx":113,"startMs":1438522,"endMs":1439802,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes. This is like you can go r-","isAd":false},{"idx":114,"startMs":1439802,"endMs":1440502,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Rockefeller, Carnegie-","isAd":false},{"idx":115,"startMs":1440922,"endMs":1441262,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Absolutely","isAd":false},{"idx":116,"startMs":1441262,"endMs":1441722,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... all of them did.","isAd":false},{"idx":117,"startMs":1441902,"endMs":1442362,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Hundred percent.","isAd":false},{"idx":118,"startMs":1442442,"endMs":1444162,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah. When you're talking, I'm like, \"Shit, this is Rockefeller.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":119,"startMs":1444222,"endMs":1448422,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It, it totally. So I, I read, uh, I think it was a Chernow biography.","isAd":false},{"idx":120,"startMs":1448462,"endMs":1448862,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Of Titan?","isAd":false},{"idx":121,"startMs":1449282,"endMs":1449582,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes.","isAd":false},{"idx":122,"startMs":1449762,"endMs":1451142,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay, there's actually a better one I'm gonna send you.","isAd":false},{"idx":123,"startMs":1451182,"endMs":1451342,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":124,"startMs":1451622,"endMs":1459242,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And what it is is this book from 1970 by David Freeman Hawk. It's called Rockefeller: The Founding Father- John D., the Founding Father of Rockefellers.","isAd":false},{"idx":125,"startMs":1460182,"endMs":1460202,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":126,"startMs":1460222,"endMs":1467242,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Titan is eight hundred pages, and you got a lot about his, like, family history. This is, like, two hundred and fifty pages of how he built Standard Oil, and it's-","isAd":false},{"idx":127,"startMs":1467282,"endMs":1467442,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":128,"startMs":1467442,"endMs":1467982,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... this shit.","isAd":false},{"idx":129,"startMs":1468262,"endMs":1468502,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":130,"startMs":1468542,"endMs":1469882,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"It is exactly what you're describing.","isAd":false},{"idx":131,"startMs":1469902,"endMs":1469902,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":132,"startMs":1469962,"endMs":1472382,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I wanna interrupt you one second before you go back to China.","isAd":false},{"idx":133,"startMs":1472402,"endMs":1472482,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":134,"startMs":1472782,"endMs":1476542,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"My question to you now is, like, I spend- ... thousands of dollars a month on Uber.","isAd":false},{"idx":135,"startMs":1476822,"endMs":1476822,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":136,"startMs":1476822,"endMs":1478342,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And I only use Uber Black SUV.","isAd":false},{"idx":137,"startMs":1478762,"endMs":1478762,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":138,"startMs":1478802,"endMs":1484842,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"It's insane. What ... In a, in a, in a, uh, a mature market in the United States, in these big cities that I'm using Uber-","isAd":false},{"idx":139,"startMs":1485122,"endMs":1485162,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":140,"startMs":1485182,"endMs":1488962,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... what would, how would y- the network effects of Uber be reversed?","isAd":false},{"idx":141,"startMs":1489682,"endMs":1529062,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay, so there's a couple things. First is a small player competing against Uber has certain advantages. Let's say a small player said, \"I'm going to have cheaper rides than the big player.\" Okay? The small player, let's say, is 1/10 the size, let's just say. Their subsidies on an absolute basis are somewhere around 1/10 as much. So if I am the small guy and I go and subsidize rides, I'm gonna gain market share unless the big guy is spending 10 times as much as me. Now, the efficiency edge can make it instead of 10X, can make it 7X.","isAd":false},{"idx":142,"startMs":1529262,"endMs":1529502,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":143,"startMs":1530022,"endMs":1545862,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay? But you, you ultimately ... A, a well-funded competitor, you have to let them grow to some degree so that they, they have to feel the weight of the size of what they are, so when they're subsidizing, it becomes a problem.","isAd":false},{"idx":144,"startMs":1545902,"endMs":1546622,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And it hurts more.","isAd":false},{"idx":145,"startMs":1547522,"endMs":1567762,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I like to talk about situations where if we had a competitor, we weren't exactly sure what was going on. Because what happens is you have to guess ... When you're subsidizing, you have to guess, do I have an efficiency edge on them or not? You try to make yourself as efficient as possible, but you don't know if you are more efficient than them or not, so you need signal-","isAd":false},{"idx":146,"startMs":1568442,"endMs":1568482,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm","isAd":false},{"idx":147,"startMs":1568482,"endMs":1598902,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... to determine whether you're better. One of the ways you could totally do it is let the competitor get to 50%, so it's 50/50. You have the same network size. Then you would start to see, okay, is my price lower than theirs while maintaining a 50% market share, or is my price higher than theirs while maintaining a mar- a 50% market share? If I can maintain 50% market share while having a higher price, then my system is more efficient than them.","isAd":false},{"idx":148,"startMs":1599062,"endMs":1599302,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":149,"startMs":1599842,"endMs":1626182,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Then I could start dialing because I know they'll lose. Because why? Because at some point, efficiency outstrips subsidy. What I mean by that is when you're subsidizing, you go through huge growth, and at some point, you get so big that you can't really subsidize a lot. Like, if you're doing 10 billion rides a year, you can't subsidize two bucks a ride.","isAd":false},{"idx":150,"startMs":1626222,"endMs":1626942,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"'Cause you run out of money.","isAd":false},{"idx":151,"startMs":1627062,"endMs":1628362,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There's $20 billion a year.","isAd":false},{"idx":152,"startMs":1628382,"endMs":1628402,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":153,"startMs":1628462,"endMs":1629322,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Nobody's gonna fund that.","isAd":false},{"idx":154,"startMs":1629482,"endMs":1629642,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":155,"startMs":1629902,"endMs":1643262,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right? And so as you get bigger and bigger, the amount of subsidy you can actually put to it is smaller and smaller, and at some point, the amount of subsidy you can put to it realistically is smaller than your efficiency gain by just being better.","isAd":false},{"idx":156,"startMs":1643562,"endMs":1643742,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":157,"startMs":1644142,"endMs":1657922,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And so then you ... Efficiency outstrips subsidy. Anybody who's a small player in a market has a natural advantage if they're well-funded, is that you can gain market share very quickly, and you can force the big guy to burn money.","isAd":false},{"idx":158,"startMs":1658582,"endMs":1661862,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But why wouldn't the big guy be able to drown the smaller competitor faster?","isAd":false},{"idx":159,"startMs":1662582,"endMs":1664542,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, there are, there are ways to reverse it.","isAd":false},{"idx":160,"startMs":1664762,"endMs":1664802,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":161,"startMs":1664922,"endMs":1693522,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So for instance, uh, the other way where there's asymmetric going the other way is, uh, recruiting drivers. So for instance, I could give subsidies to drivers if I'm the big guy. I can give subsidies to drivers that are like, uh, they're like, uh, $1,000 if you join Uber, and you're f- you know, you do 100 trips in that f- first week.","isAd":false},{"idx":162,"startMs":1693782,"endMs":1694042,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":163,"startMs":1695362,"endMs":1708042,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I could suck up that supply. The only way they're gonna be able to keep those drivers is they're gonna have to subsidize across all of their drivers even though I just took a small number of them.","isAd":false},{"idx":164,"startMs":1708262,"endMs":1708502,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":165,"startMs":1709162,"endMs":1712742,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So I'm gonna suck up all of their drivers unless they defend their driver base.","isAd":false},{"idx":166,"startMs":1713262,"endMs":1713342,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Hey-","isAd":false},{"idx":167,"startMs":1713342,"endMs":1715102,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There's like a lot of little things like this, and-","isAd":false},{"idx":168,"startMs":1715122,"endMs":1715482,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But-","isAd":false},{"idx":169,"startMs":1715522,"endMs":1723442,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And I'm almost, like, re- remembering, 'cause it's been 10 years since I did any of this, but, like, I'm trying to remember all the ways where it's asymmetric one way versus the other way, and I'm ... Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":170,"startMs":1723502,"endMs":1724102,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I think you hit on-","isAd":false},{"idx":171,"startMs":1724182,"endMs":1724242,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":172,"startMs":1724242,"endMs":1732062,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... it's, it's th- this paying attention to every single little detail. So, like, when you were speaking about even the sign-up flow and, like, how fast the ride comes-","isAd":false},{"idx":173,"startMs":1732101,"endMs":1732101,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":174,"startMs":1732101,"endMs":1733402,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... and how easy it is to, to put in your-","isAd":false},{"idx":175,"startMs":1733642,"endMs":1733722,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":176,"startMs":1733822,"endMs":1734541,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... credit card information-","isAd":false},{"idx":177,"startMs":1734582,"endMs":1734622,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":178,"startMs":1734622,"endMs":1744702,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... and everything else, my ... What I'm sitting here thinking is not necessarily about you and Uber in China. I'm thinking about Rockefeller walking by and saying, \"Hey, you guys are putting 50 drops of solder, so- uh, solder-","isAd":false},{"idx":179,"startMs":1745022,"endMs":1745142,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":180,"startMs":1745262,"endMs":1752602,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... on these barrels, and you're doing that because you think it's 50 so it doesn't leak. Try 48.\" They try 48. This is in fucking Titan.","isAd":false},{"idx":181,"startMs":1752762,"endMs":1752762,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":182,"startMs":1752762,"endMs":1753662,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"They try 48. It leaks.","isAd":false},{"idx":183,"startMs":1753902,"endMs":1753902,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":184,"startMs":1753922,"endMs":1754642,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What about 49?","isAd":false},{"idx":185,"startMs":1755342,"endMs":1755342,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":186,"startMs":1755522,"endMs":1756022,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"49, it doesn't leak.","isAd":false},{"idx":187,"startMs":1756062,"endMs":1756242,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":188,"startMs":1756262,"endMs":1759482,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And he says, \"The first year, that only saved us $2,500 a year-","isAd":false},{"idx":189,"startMs":1759502,"endMs":1759742,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm. Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":190,"startMs":1759782,"endMs":1760702,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... 'cause we did that one drop.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":191,"startMs":1761122,"endMs":1761122,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":192,"startMs":1761122,"endMs":1763822,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"\"But we were tiny. Now it's hundreds of thousands of dollars.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":193,"startMs":1763882,"endMs":1763882,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":194,"startMs":1763922,"endMs":1769022,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And he did that with a thousand different things, so by the time he got to his scale, you're not competing at all.","isAd":false},{"idx":195,"startMs":1769182,"endMs":1769182,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":196,"startMs":1769222,"endMs":1769882,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"It's impossible.","isAd":false},{"idx":197,"startMs":1770222,"endMs":1802862,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And so that's super important. Now, I read Titan after Uber. Okay? And I'm reading him going, \"Holy shit, this dude was way more hardcore.\" But the reason why is 'cause I got an anti ... Like, there ... We had antitrust attorneys at Uber, and they're, like, very ... Making it very clear, like, there's certain things you can do, certain things you can't. They're, like, training me and educating me on antitrust law.","isAd":false},{"idx":198,"startMs":1803222,"endMs":1803382,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":199,"startMs":1803922,"endMs":1821162,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Now, at first when you hear that and you're just a startup kid, like, literally just get ... You're like, \"Antitrust law? That's like, uh ... What are you ... I can't wait to have that problem.\" You know? Uh, but it, it ends up being obviously very important. Um, but Rockefeller didn't have that.","isAd":false},{"idx":200,"startMs":1821542,"endMs":1821662,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"No.","isAd":false},{"idx":201,"startMs":1822142,"endMs":1822482,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"He, but-","isAd":false},{"idx":202,"startMs":1822522,"endMs":1824042,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"The laws were passed because of him.","isAd":false},{"idx":203,"startMs":1824202,"endMs":1835822,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Of course. But it's like he's the super ... Like, people use OG. They use it the wrong way. It means original gangster. He's the OG OG.","isAd":false},{"idx":204,"startMs":1837258,"endMs":1878918,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book Zero to One. The quote says, \"The single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas.\" That is exactly what AppLovin has done with their advertising platform. AppLovin connects you with over a billion potential new customers inside mobile games. AppLovin allows you to capture undivided attention. AppLovin ads are full-screen video ads that are watched for an average of thirty-five seconds. That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water, and you can launch on AppLovin in minutes. You set the goal, and AppLovin achieves it.","isAd":true},{"idx":205,"startMs":1879238,"endMs":1906738,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"There's no complex setup, no expertise needed, and AppLovin scales quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate results, have scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day, and increased their revenue by millions. So you wanna get started quickly before all of your competitors are on AppLovin, and you can do that by going to AppLovin.com. That's AppLovin.com.","isAd":true},{"idx":206,"startMs":1908298,"endMs":1927958,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I think the other thing about monopolies too is there's, there are different ways, they're different things because sometimes the monopoly emerges because the company is so competitive. Sometimes the monopoly emerges because the company is anti-competitive, and they're different.","isAd":false},{"idx":207,"startMs":1928418,"endMs":1929438,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's interesting. Say more about this.","isAd":false},{"idx":208,"startMs":1929498,"endMs":1941538,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah. Well, where I ended up at Uber was it basically sort of the motto was more like, \"The one who serves the customer best gets all the customers.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":209,"startMs":1942638,"endMs":1943418,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Very Bezos.","isAd":false},{"idx":210,"startMs":1945018,"endMs":1967598,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's where we ended up. So you can be highly competitive. And look, we had never, at Uber, we never got a regulation passed that would hurt a competitor. We never would do that. That's just not how we rolled. We never donated to a campaign, ever, to try to get something passed.","isAd":false},{"idx":211,"startMs":1968118,"endMs":1969978,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You wanted to win because you built the best service.","isAd":false},{"idx":212,"startMs":1970138,"endMs":1970458,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's right.","isAd":false},{"idx":213,"startMs":1970678,"endMs":1981118,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I'm reading this b- biography right now. It was published in nineteen seventy-five. It's on the founder of Honda, who's competing in Japan. Po-- He founds Honda nineteen forty-eight. Japan's in ruins.","isAd":false},{"idx":214,"startMs":1981358,"endMs":1981618,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":215,"startMs":1981698,"endMs":1987758,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And they're-- the, the technology in Japan is really low at the time, and so all these, all of his, the people that are building motorcycles-","isAd":false},{"idx":216,"startMs":1987798,"endMs":1987818,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":217,"startMs":1987818,"endMs":2000118,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... and cars, they're like, \"Let's bui- bui-- uh, let's get together and petition the government to not allow imports.\" And he's like, and he was the only one that voted against it. He goes, \"No, no, no.\" He goes, \"The way to win is to build the superior technology.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":218,"startMs":2000458,"endMs":2000698,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No. Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":219,"startMs":2000718,"endMs":2003478,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"'Cause if we have the best product, that product will go, it won't just-","isAd":false},{"idx":220,"startMs":2003638,"endMs":2003738,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":221,"startMs":2003738,"endMs":2005118,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... be profitable in Japan-","isAd":false},{"idx":222,"startMs":2005418,"endMs":2005458,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":223,"startMs":2005478,"endMs":2007138,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... it'll spread throughout the entire world.","isAd":false},{"idx":224,"startMs":2007198,"endMs":2007338,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":225,"startMs":2007558,"endMs":2009078,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Very much like what you're saying here. It's like-","isAd":false},{"idx":226,"startMs":2009118,"endMs":2009138,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":227,"startMs":2009138,"endMs":2012438,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... no, I don't want protectionism. I wanna win because I built the best product.","isAd":false},{"idx":228,"startMs":2012658,"endMs":2012838,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, and-","isAd":false},{"idx":229,"startMs":2012858,"endMs":2013678,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Customers are choosing it","isAd":false},{"idx":230,"startMs":2013698,"endMs":2022178,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... and also remember, what we were overcoming to do what we do was a system that was perfectly anti-competitive.","isAd":false},{"idx":231,"startMs":2022798,"endMs":2023398,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Can you explain-","isAd":false},{"idx":232,"startMs":2023498,"endMs":2024158,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"A government-","isAd":false},{"idx":233,"startMs":2024378,"endMs":2024558,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What type? Can-","isAd":false},{"idx":234,"startMs":2024618,"endMs":2031118,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"A government-condoned monopoly or a government-condoned cartel called taxi.","isAd":false},{"idx":235,"startMs":2031198,"endMs":2035478,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"People don't understand this. Can you explain the environment in which you started Uber?","isAd":false},{"idx":236,"startMs":2035878,"endMs":2079098,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Let's start with what is a taxi? Okay, what is a taxi? Um, we'll do New York 'cause it's the best, it's the best way to tell it. In the early nineteen hundreds, there were people that were picking up other citizens, uh, that needed a ride across town and charging them for it. And, um, eventually, the city decided, \"Hey, look, we wanna have this to be licensed and controlled in some way,\" or, like, certainly rules of the road. Just rules of the road. So you'd get a license, but anybody could get a license. You'd get that license for free, and they would make sure, like, you weren't, like, a felon and, like, different things like this, which you'd go, \"That sounds great. Good idea.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":237,"startMs":2079598,"endMs":2122498,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But anybody could get a license and get it for free, a taxi license in New York. And eventually, that number got to, I don't know, somewhere around thirteen thousand. And then those thirteen thousand people who had licenses, this is now, like, let's call it the nineteen twenties, the nineteen thirties, decided that they would lobby the city to give no more licenses out. And the city, they, they did some deals. Who knows? You know, that era in New York you know how that went down. But no more licenses. And of course, that was great for the people who had them because as the city was growing,","isAd":false},{"idx":238,"startMs":2123578,"endMs":2164118,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"there's more and more demand to get across town, but there are a fixed number of licenses, people who could do it, were allowed to do it. Then the taxi guys go to city council, and they, they lobby again. And the next version of the lobbying is, \"We wanna be able to sell the license to somebody else.\" So now I have this thing. Now it's known as a medallion. Now I can, I can... It's l- it's sort of artificial scarcity. Um, and I can sell it to somebody else who wants to get a cash flow that's an artificially high cash flow because nobody's allowed to compete, essentially.","isAd":false},{"idx":239,"startMs":2165118,"endMs":2209758,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And then they went to city council one more time, and they said, \"We wanna be able to lease out this license to an individual on a daily or weekly basis.\" And that is the modern taxi system today. When Uber rolled into New York, uh, the driver was getting a twelve-hour shift seven days a week, but there are two twelve-hour shifts. Each of those drivers was paying forty thousand dollars a year to rent a car for half time. Which means the guy who had the license, whose grandpa got it for free, okay?","isAd":false},{"idx":240,"startMs":2210458,"endMs":2255038,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"All right? The guy who has the license whose grandpa got it for free is getting eighty thousand dollars a year renting a car to a taxi driver, and that taxi driver who's paying forty thousand dollars a year for twelve hours a day, f- he's renting a car for forty thousand dollars a year. For that privilege, he gets to be impoverished. That is the taxi system, and they are over a hundred years, so it's like, uh, Stockholm syndrome or regulatory capture is so frickin' tight that the, the regulators... The difference between the regulator and the taxi company is almost in- indistinguishable.","isAd":false},{"idx":241,"startMs":2256358,"endMs":2261538,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And it had to be jarring for you to walk into a system where you just described. You're just describing corruption.","isAd":false},{"idx":242,"startMs":2262058,"endMs":2262058,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":243,"startMs":2262098,"endMs":2263058,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That has, that does not serve-","isAd":false},{"idx":244,"startMs":2263338,"endMs":2264158,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Legalized corruption.","isAd":false},{"idx":245,"startMs":2264198,"endMs":2264618,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Legalized corruption.","isAd":false},{"idx":246,"startMs":2264638,"endMs":2273378,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So, look, so remember, it is... So what is the taxi system? It is a government-condoned cartel that outlaws competition.","isAd":false},{"idx":247,"startMs":2273818,"endMs":2282518,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But it, it had to be jarring for you because then you come in with, with a better product at a better, at a cheaper price that customers love a thou- I've never taken a... Since I had Uber.","isAd":false},{"idx":248,"startMs":2282558,"endMs":2282558,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":249,"startMs":2282558,"endMs":2283958,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You've had... You caught me in two thousand and ten-","isAd":false},{"idx":250,"startMs":2284098,"endMs":2284198,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":251,"startMs":2284278,"endMs":2285118,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... or whenever you opened up-","isAd":false},{"idx":252,"startMs":2285158,"endMs":2285158,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":253,"startMs":2285158,"endMs":2285698,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... in New York.","isAd":false},{"idx":254,"startMs":2285718,"endMs":2285778,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":255,"startMs":2285838,"endMs":2287998,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You've kept me since then. I've never opened up another app-","isAd":false},{"idx":256,"startMs":2288258,"endMs":2288358,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":257,"startMs":2288358,"endMs":2290918,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... like sixteen, seventeen years, however long, long it's been.","isAd":false},{"idx":258,"startMs":2291498,"endMs":2291498,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":259,"startMs":2291598,"endMs":2294058,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"It's like I'm choosing to do that.","isAd":false},{"idx":260,"startMs":2294238,"endMs":2294238,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":261,"startMs":2294238,"endMs":2299478,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And then the governments are like, \"No, no. This legalized corruption is good. You, Travis, and Uber, get the hell out of here.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":262,"startMs":2299538,"endMs":2319318,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So what happens is, uh, being anti-competitive is illegal in the United States unless you get a government official or regulator to do it for you. Then it's legal. Pretty interesting.","isAd":false},{"idx":263,"startMs":2320998,"endMs":2323578,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"We were talking before we started recording about capitalism.","isAd":false},{"idx":264,"startMs":2323898,"endMs":2324078,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":265,"startMs":2324118,"endMs":2335658,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And you had some interesting thoughts and ways to describe it. I would also say, like, you know, this, this show's a love letter to capitalism. It's very pro-entrepreneurship. I'm the son of a Cuban immigrant. I grew up meeting people that came over here in rafts. I-","isAd":false},{"idx":266,"startMs":2335958,"endMs":2335978,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":267,"startMs":2335998,"endMs":2337598,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"From the time I was nine years old, I knew it was st- I-","isAd":false},{"idx":268,"startMs":2337698,"endMs":2337838,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right","isAd":false},{"idx":269,"startMs":2337838,"endMs":2340678,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... I, I'm obviously born into a very special place if these people-","isAd":false},{"idx":270,"startMs":2340758,"endMs":2340758,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":271,"startMs":2340758,"endMs":2341818,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... risked their lives to get here-","isAd":false},{"idx":272,"startMs":2342058,"endMs":2342118,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":273,"startMs":2342138,"endMs":2346838,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... and the wealth that this, this country has created. What I think also has to be called out is this crony capitalism-","isAd":false},{"idx":274,"startMs":2346858,"endMs":2346898,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm","isAd":false},{"idx":275,"startMs":2346898,"endMs":2352318,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... where it's like you don't... I, I like the Hondas of the world where it's like, no, no, I, I wanna win because I'm the best-","isAd":false},{"idx":276,"startMs":2352478,"endMs":2352578,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":277,"startMs":2352598,"endMs":2355878,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... not because I gave you a bunch of money and you shut down my competitors.","isAd":false},{"idx":278,"startMs":2355938,"endMs":2356038,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right.","isAd":false},{"idx":279,"startMs":2356298,"endMs":2357338,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That shit should be called out.","isAd":false},{"idx":280,"startMs":2357478,"endMs":2390298,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So it's super interesting because you go, okay, well, in this case, Uber was, was the symbol of hyper capitalism if, in many ways. Like, it was like embracing all of the values and, um, principles of capitalism, but it started with the most important, which is an individual has a right to choose between different, uh, suppliers of a good or service.","isAd":false},{"idx":281,"startMs":2390518,"endMs":2390818,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":282,"startMs":2391498,"endMs":2432558,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's like a pro competition thing. The consumer has a right to choose between different offerings. The other side of that is an individual can start a business to provide that service or offering. So you go, okay, so capitalism at its foundation is somebody can start a legal business, like a, you know, any, uh, make a product or a service and offer it to people, and the people have the right to choose which one they use. That's capitalism. So the question is, what's anti-capitalism? Anti-capitalism is the constraint","isAd":false},{"idx":283,"startMs":2433438,"endMs":2466798,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"on people being able to start a business or a, uh, have a vocation that they choose and/or individuals not having the right to choose which service or off- or product that they buy. At the core, that's what it is. Now, people get confused. Sometimes they think something is capitalism that is not. Uh, it's pretty obvious, you know, anybody watching any part of this conversation on taxis, it's super clear that taxis are definitely not capitalism.","isAd":false},{"idx":284,"startMs":2467038,"endMs":2467238,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":285,"startMs":2467638,"endMs":2491598,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But it's why they are not very good, and it's why they are more expensive than they need to be. And if people are taking Ubers today in New York and wondering why it's so expensive and why it's getting more unreliable, it's because after I left Uber, they started passing a bunch of laws that are turning Uber into the taxi system.","isAd":false},{"idx":286,"startMs":2492258,"endMs":2492798,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I didn't know this.","isAd":false},{"idx":287,"startMs":2492938,"endMs":2529438,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah. They've l- they have a limit on the number of drivers that can be on Uber. They've turned it into a medallion system that cannot be traded, and as people retire out of driving, the number of Ubers, I believe, I may have this wrong, but it's something... It's either fixed or shrinking right now, and that is why the prices are going up and the service is going down. But Uber's thought of as a capitalist thing, but actually the government is constraining it. This is a... And why? Because of the taxi owners who want their medallion prices to go back up.","isAd":false},{"idx":288,"startMs":2529998,"endMs":2531798,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"This is madness. Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged?","isAd":false},{"idx":289,"startMs":2532378,"endMs":2539198,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Of course, yeah. I mean, a lot of people are like, \"What's happening now feels like the scenar- you know, the scenes in, from that book.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":290,"startMs":2539258,"endMs":2541898,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I, I haven't... It was, like, recommended to me a million times.","isAd":false},{"idx":291,"startMs":2541938,"endMs":2542058,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":292,"startMs":2542078,"endMs":2549598,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"There's a bunch of people, guests that have been on this show that have talked to me about it in private, and finally I was like, \"All right.\" The twelfth fucking person that recommended, I finally read it, and I'm like-","isAd":false},{"idx":293,"startMs":2549678,"endMs":2549698,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":294,"startMs":2549718,"endMs":2556918,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And then I went and looked up. I was like, \"Wait, this was written from like nineteen forty-six to nineteen fifty-six,\" I think the ten-year period she was writing. I was like, \"This sounds... The, the, the, the-","isAd":false},{"idx":295,"startMs":2557018,"endMs":2557138,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":296,"startMs":2557138,"endMs":2558118,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... people in this book-","isAd":false},{"idx":297,"startMs":2558418,"endMs":2558478,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":298,"startMs":2558538,"endMs":2559258,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... is exactly-","isAd":false},{"idx":299,"startMs":2559758,"endMs":2559758,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":300,"startMs":2559758,"endMs":2561158,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... it's the same kind of person today.","isAd":false},{"idx":301,"startMs":2561198,"endMs":2563678,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, yeah, for sure. I agree with that. I think there's a lot of-","isAd":false},{"idx":302,"startMs":2563698,"endMs":2570118,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"The whole, the book is like we have these prime movers, and then we have these people that are just trying to restrain. They're competitive and they're... I love what you said.","isAd":false},{"idx":303,"startMs":2570238,"endMs":2570238,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":304,"startMs":2570258,"endMs":2572210,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Like, what are they protesting? Progress","isAd":false},{"idx":305,"startMs":2572470,"endMs":2572570,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":306,"startMs":2572910,"endMs":2577670,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But what happens when the people building the progress then go on strike? That's a very fascinating, like, theme throughout the book.","isAd":false},{"idx":307,"startMs":2578350,"endMs":2582210,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, I mean, we get to some pretty interesting places with this kinda thing.","isAd":false},{"idx":308,"startMs":2582370,"endMs":2589970,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"In your career, did you only run into this government corruption in Uber? Have you run into any... I know you started, uh, City Storage Systems.","isAd":false},{"idx":309,"startMs":2590030,"endMs":2590170,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":310,"startMs":2590330,"endMs":2592230,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"CloudKitchens was in City Storage Systems.","isAd":false},{"idx":311,"startMs":2592270,"endMs":2592550,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":312,"startMs":2592590,"endMs":2597490,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Now you renamed it Adams. Have you run into... Because your j- your, your whole thing, what I love about you is just, like-","isAd":false},{"idx":313,"startMs":2597910,"endMs":2597990,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":314,"startMs":2598050,"endMs":2598950,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... all physical world.","isAd":false},{"idx":315,"startMs":2598990,"endMs":2598990,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":316,"startMs":2599010,"endMs":2600930,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I think you said it's a c- you consider it a calling-","isAd":false},{"idx":317,"startMs":2601410,"endMs":2601530,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":318,"startMs":2601750,"endMs":2602790,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... to digitize-","isAd":false},{"idx":319,"startMs":2602910,"endMs":2603689,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"The physical world.","isAd":false},{"idx":320,"startMs":2603850,"endMs":2605290,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I love that you use the word calling, though.","isAd":false},{"idx":321,"startMs":2605310,"endMs":2605310,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":322,"startMs":2605330,"endMs":2608210,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I think that's really important. Have you run into other forms of-","isAd":false},{"idx":323,"startMs":2608350,"endMs":2624070,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's everywhere, but taxis is by far the most intense. Literally, competi- We, we talk about anti-competitive things, and antitrust law, and Rockefeller, and things like this. No, no, no, taxis, competition is illegal.","isAd":false},{"idx":324,"startMs":2625270,"endMs":2626390,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But why do they still have power?","isAd":false},{"idx":325,"startMs":2627050,"endMs":2645710,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"They've captured the regulators through lobbying, through donations, through legalized corruption. And it's not like the only industry where this exists, you know? There are obviously many other industries, but in terms of what I've seen, competition is outlawed.","isAd":false},{"idx":326,"startMs":2646030,"endMs":2652910,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"How does the China Didi Uber story end? Did they, the government put the hand on the scale and favor Didi over Uber?","isAd":false},{"idx":327,"startMs":2653250,"endMs":2678050,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So they ultimately did. What happened was is the China war went global, and what happened is the sovereign wealth, uh, their sovereign wealth funds in China started pouring billions of dollars into my competitors, Uber's competitors in different regions so that they would subsidize in those regions and drain my resources.","isAd":false},{"idx":328,"startMs":2678690,"endMs":2683930,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Wait, before you go there, take me your mindset when you realize the game that they're playing.","isAd":false},{"idx":329,"startMs":2684150,"endMs":2689110,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, I mean, you're like, \"Damn.\" \"That's real.\" You're like-","isAd":false},{"idx":330,"startMs":2689170,"endMs":2691450,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But are you, like, not sleeping? Are you, like-","isAd":false},{"idx":331,"startMs":2691610,"endMs":2726350,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, I mean, the entire Uber thing was, like, a lack of sleep, you know? So it wasn't like this was a new lack of sleep thing. It was just... I mean, it was a new thing, but lack of sleep generally was a thing, just because I had a global business that was really intense and, and very game theory oriented in the ways that I'm describing, which means it was always on. And crazy weird things happen in cars at night. So, uh, like, uh, the first time I got woken up in the middle of the night because there was a, a drive-by shooting from an Uber. You know what I mean?","isAd":false},{"idx":332,"startMs":2726670,"endMs":2726770,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":333,"startMs":2726810,"endMs":2727750,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Like, that's not good.","isAd":false},{"idx":334,"startMs":2728150,"endMs":2728270,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":335,"startMs":2728930,"endMs":2737550,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"The, the thing is is that w- what happens in a city happens in an Uber. And so you're-","isAd":false},{"idx":336,"startMs":2737610,"endMs":2739790,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And so you're exposed to all the vagaries of human behavior.","isAd":false},{"idx":337,"startMs":2739790,"endMs":2761950,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, the, the roads, the roads are the cardiovascular system for the city. There's nothing that happens in a city that the road doesn't touch. You know, people are people. They do things they shouldn't do. What we... Our goal was to make Uber the safest place in a city, and I think we accomplished that. We got pretty close to that, um, and I know they take it pretty seriously today.","isAd":false},{"idx":338,"startMs":2762170,"endMs":2764370,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But go back to the stress. Like, you wanted the stress, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":339,"startMs":2765450,"endMs":2766090,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It was fun.","isAd":false},{"idx":340,"startMs":2766430,"endMs":2769890,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay. So Herb Kelleher, do you know who that is? Founder of-","isAd":false},{"idx":341,"startMs":2769970,"endMs":2770350,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Of Southwest","isAd":false},{"idx":342,"startMs":2770370,"endMs":2771190,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... Southwest Airlines.","isAd":false},{"idx":343,"startMs":2771230,"endMs":2771470,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes.","isAd":false},{"idx":344,"startMs":2771510,"endMs":2773330,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Most successful airline in history.","isAd":false},{"idx":345,"startMs":2773490,"endMs":2773790,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"For sure.","isAd":false},{"idx":346,"startMs":2773790,"endMs":2775350,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"40 straight years was, was profitable.","isAd":false},{"idx":347,"startMs":2775510,"endMs":2775790,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":348,"startMs":2775850,"endMs":2778990,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And you know, P- he, he has what? He was a gangster, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":349,"startMs":2779110,"endMs":2779410,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":350,"startMs":2779510,"endMs":2781670,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Uh, would drink a fifth of bourbon every day.","isAd":false},{"idx":351,"startMs":2781910,"endMs":2781970,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":352,"startMs":2781990,"endMs":2783870,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Smoke cigarettes on the planes.","isAd":false},{"idx":353,"startMs":2784330,"endMs":2784330,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":354,"startMs":2784390,"endMs":2786930,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And he was a, he... Unfiltered guy.","isAd":false},{"idx":355,"startMs":2786970,"endMs":2787070,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":356,"startMs":2787130,"endMs":2788650,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I would love if he was still alive. He'd be-","isAd":false},{"idx":357,"startMs":2788690,"endMs":2788710,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":358,"startMs":2788710,"endMs":2789890,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... like, one of my top br- uh-","isAd":false},{"idx":359,"startMs":2790170,"endMs":2790270,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":360,"startMs":2790330,"endMs":2793930,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... you know, guests I'd wanna talk to. And I love, he was giving, he was giving an interview one time.","isAd":false},{"idx":361,"startMs":2793930,"endMs":2793930,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":362,"startMs":2793970,"endMs":2798350,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"They're like, \"You undergo a lot of stress. How do you handle it?\" And he goes, \"I don't handle it. I like it.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":363,"startMs":2798630,"endMs":2798830,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":364,"startMs":2799230,"endMs":2801210,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I get that same vibe from you.","isAd":false},{"idx":365,"startMs":2801370,"endMs":2845990,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah. The lifestyle of an entrepreneur, I, I believe at its core, there's a couple other things, but this is one, one prism, one, one s- one part of it, one pillar of it, is I can take more pain than the other guy, and I'll prove it. Once you take on that lifestyle, yeah, I mean, it's a real thing. It's not just that I choose to take it on. It is the nature of the thing that I am doing. Then you are taking on a, a life of adversity and overcoming all the time. And once you are seeing adversity all the time and overcoming it, it just becomes normal. The downside of it is you can get used to adversity.","isAd":false},{"idx":366,"startMs":2846990,"endMs":2848530,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It just becomes very normal.","isAd":false},{"idx":367,"startMs":2848850,"endMs":2849670,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Why is that a downside?","isAd":false},{"idx":368,"startMs":2850170,"endMs":2860870,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Because you almost start accepting it. You don't... Like, something bad happens, you don't even get mad. And you're like, \"Oh, that's interesting.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":369,"startMs":2861990,"endMs":2864550,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But wouldn't it be beneficial to be, like, unruffled like that where-","isAd":false},{"idx":370,"startMs":2864650,"endMs":2865710,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Th- there are benefits.","isAd":false},{"idx":371,"startMs":2865890,"endMs":2866030,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":372,"startMs":2866110,"endMs":2873210,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But you need to make sure you don't get so used to it that it doesn't even bother you. You can get so zen you're unbothered.","isAd":false},{"idx":373,"startMs":2873830,"endMs":2873830,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Right.","isAd":false},{"idx":374,"startMs":2873870,"endMs":2883570,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Now, you still act, but there's something special about the extra fierceness of being bothered, being upset about something that is wrong.","isAd":false},{"idx":375,"startMs":2884330,"endMs":2885590,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah. So you're-","isAd":false},{"idx":376,"startMs":2885590,"endMs":2903790,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Wrong things. When, uh, when is adversity? When is adversity? Usually, adversity is, like, some bad shit went down that shouldn't have, and it was done to you. It's adversity. You know what I mean? Like, for a farmer, it's like a drought.","isAd":false},{"idx":377,"startMs":2904030,"endMs":2904130,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":378,"startMs":2904730,"endMs":2905050,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You know?","isAd":false},{"idx":379,"startMs":2905070,"endMs":2905070,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":380,"startMs":2905110,"endMs":2916830,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's, like, terrible. Um, so or it could be a lot of things. Could be somebody stole his crops, could be, could be pests, could be, you know, it could be anything. So, uh-","isAd":false},{"idx":381,"startMs":2916870,"endMs":2919250,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Are you just getting numb to it? Is that what you're saying? Like, was there parts of-","isAd":false},{"idx":382,"startMs":2919250,"endMs":2943760,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I'm just saying once you fully embody the lifestyle of adversity and overcoming it, you have to be careful of the ease at which you walk through it because there is an extra power in being bothered by something that is wrong. You can get too used to wrong things happening","isAd":false},{"idx":383,"startMs":2945120,"endMs":2946920,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Have you reached to that point in your career before?","isAd":false},{"idx":384,"startMs":2947820,"endMs":2952740,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, no, I, I, I would say today there are very few things that actually stress me out.","isAd":false},{"idx":385,"startMs":2954300,"endMs":2954940,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Are you worried about that?","isAd":false},{"idx":386,"startMs":2955540,"endMs":2968580,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Of course. So I remember the things that are important, and that's where I channel fierceness through, what is right and what is wrong.","isAd":false},{"idx":387,"startMs":2969300,"endMs":2971760,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You're almost telling me you've been inoculated through-","isAd":false},{"idx":388,"startMs":2971780,"endMs":2972400,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"My, my point is-","isAd":false},{"idx":389,"startMs":2972400,"endMs":2972940,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... from pain","isAd":false},{"idx":390,"startMs":2973220,"endMs":2981860,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... yeah, it's something like a, there's a zen that can happen when a warrior has fought for a long time. You can get used to it.","isAd":false},{"idx":391,"startMs":2984220,"endMs":2988800,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah, but you still, for at least on the outside, you still have this, like, crazy... I told you, you're the most intense person-","isAd":false},{"idx":392,"startMs":2989000,"endMs":2989120,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":393,"startMs":2989120,"endMs":2990340,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... I've ever met, and I've met-","isAd":false},{"idx":394,"startMs":2990460,"endMs":2990460,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":395,"startMs":2990480,"endMs":2991880,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... almost all the top founders in the world.","isAd":false},{"idx":396,"startMs":2992060,"endMs":2994900,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But imagine fierceness with calm on the inside.","isAd":false},{"idx":397,"startMs":2995580,"endMs":2996820,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's what you want, or that's what you're working-","isAd":false},{"idx":398,"startMs":2996840,"endMs":2997680,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's, that's, that's what I got.","isAd":false},{"idx":399,"startMs":2997960,"endMs":2998140,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":400,"startMs":2998180,"endMs":2999360,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's where I'm at. Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":401,"startMs":2999560,"endMs":3002040,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You, you weren't calm on the inside when you were building Uber. That's what you're saying?","isAd":false},{"idx":402,"startMs":3002580,"endMs":3009000,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I'm just saying as one entrepreneur is longer and longer and- ... does it properly-","isAd":false},{"idx":403,"startMs":3009280,"endMs":3010560,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I've never heard it used as a verb.","isAd":false},{"idx":404,"startMs":3011440,"endMs":3015760,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You get, you get to that place. You just get to that place.","isAd":false},{"idx":405,"startMs":3015780,"endMs":3018420,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"As one entrepreneur for longer and longer, I'm using that line, man.","isAd":false},{"idx":406,"startMs":3020220,"endMs":3021000,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You just get to that place.","isAd":false},{"idx":407,"startMs":3021020,"endMs":3041660,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Well, I, I love what you said, though, about, like, the pain because, you know, there's a bunch of maxims from the history of entrepreneurship that I love. Like, um, I think something that w- we, we both, uh, like, support is, like, trying to, to win based on, you know, providing the best service. So, like, one of my favorite maxims comes from Henry Ford where he says, \"Money comes naturally as a result of service.\" If you go read his autobiography, you see how he organized Ford Motor Company.","isAd":false},{"idx":408,"startMs":3041660,"endMs":3041720,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":409,"startMs":3041760,"endMs":3045280,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Just like, \"We're gonna provide the maximum amount of service, and I'm not... The money will take care of itself.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":410,"startMs":3045340,"endMs":3045420,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":411,"startMs":3045440,"endMs":3047160,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"If I'm just the delighting the customer-","isAd":false},{"idx":412,"startMs":3047260,"endMs":3047360,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":413,"startMs":3047480,"endMs":3048440,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... the bank account will be fine.","isAd":false},{"idx":414,"startMs":3048480,"endMs":3048720,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":415,"startMs":3048740,"endMs":3050080,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But my favorite maxim-","isAd":false},{"idx":416,"startMs":3050440,"endMs":3050460,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":417,"startMs":3050460,"endMs":3051700,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... from all of history of entrepreneurship-","isAd":false},{"idx":418,"startMs":3051760,"endMs":3051820,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":419,"startMs":3052100,"endMs":3054340,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... is excellence is the capacity to take pain.","isAd":false},{"idx":420,"startMs":3054840,"endMs":3054980,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":421,"startMs":3055060,"endMs":3056020,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Which is exactly what you said.","isAd":false},{"idx":422,"startMs":3056080,"endMs":3058060,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Oh, this is 100... Oh, I love that one.","isAd":false},{"idx":423,"startMs":3058240,"endMs":3058300,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":424,"startMs":3058320,"endMs":3094220,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That is 100% true. So once you say entrepreneurship is the lifestyle of entrepreneuring. The lifestyle of entrepreneuring is the, uh, this sort of pride, and I can take more pain than the other guy. You go, \"Why?\" Well, the best example is, like, world-class marathoner on mile 21. You ever seen, you ever seen a marathon? You ever seen a marathoner on mile 21? Probably on TV. Is that dude smiling?","isAd":false},{"idx":425,"startMs":3094260,"endMs":3094600,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":426,"startMs":3095120,"endMs":3139500,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Fuck no. Of course not. Why? Because if he were smiling, if he were just not feeling pain, there's somebody else who will. What is the difference between feeling pain and not feeling pain is that extra push. That extra push means he loses if he's not getting into that pain, and that's what excellence is. Excellence is about pushing into the extent, the, the, the, the h- what is a human capable of, the, the, the full potential. Because if you don't, somebody else does.","isAd":false},{"idx":427,"startMs":3139800,"endMs":3139980,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":428,"startMs":3140200,"endMs":3157480,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And then that becomes the standard of excellence, and all of human progress is through that push towards excellence that is a push through pain. If it is not painful, you're clearly not pushing hard enough.","isAd":false},{"idx":429,"startMs":3158080,"endMs":3164660,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And I love that you've tied this to if you're doing something that's easy, you're doing something that's not valuable.","isAd":false},{"idx":430,"startMs":3165120,"endMs":3209740,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"If you're doing something that's easy, it may be valuable, but you're about to get your ass whooped. Or it may not be valuable. It just depends. So, you know, easy could be sitting on the beach for six months. Now, it could be valuable to you, respect, and that's all good. Everybody has that choice. That's all good. But you're not, you're, you're, you're not bringing human progress. And then you go, \"Well, that's interesting. So if somebody sits on the beach for six months, they're not bringing... There's no parti- they're not participating in human progress?\" I'm like, \"Well, how could they?\" You're like, \"Well, what if they start thinking deeply about","isAd":false},{"idx":431,"startMs":3211600,"endMs":3223880,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"life and about philosophy and about society, and they had really amazing thoughts?\" I'm like, \"Well, did they write them down?\" I'm like, \"Okay, he wrote them down. So now he's on the beach writing it down.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":432,"startMs":3224040,"endMs":3224300,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":433,"startMs":3224620,"endMs":3243560,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And I'm like, \"Okay, but there's lots of people doing that. He's gotta be better than those other guys if he wants to be about progress, so now he's really fucking writing them down, and he's honing those words to such a degree that it's beautiful and perfect before somebody else has that thought and does it themselves, and now he's in pain.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":434,"startMs":3244600,"endMs":3249300,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"How long did you take from when you left Uber, which obviously had to be fucking devastating, heartbreaking-","isAd":false},{"idx":435,"startMs":3249740,"endMs":3250000,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":436,"startMs":3250300,"endMs":3254160,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... to jumping into the next thing? Did you sit on the beach for a little bit? Like, what did you actually do?","isAd":false},{"idx":437,"startMs":3254320,"endMs":3263880,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No, so it was, like, seven months, six, seven months, something like this, and most of it was, uh, fending off lawfare.","isAd":false},{"idx":438,"startMs":3264280,"endMs":3266780,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So wait, the lawfare, was it criminal, or were they trying to, like-","isAd":false},{"idx":439,"startMs":3266940,"endMs":3267880,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It was civil and criminal.","isAd":false},{"idx":440,"startMs":3268020,"endMs":3268060,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":441,"startMs":3268060,"endMs":3268700,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"For sure, yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":442,"startMs":3269100,"endMs":3269420,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":443,"startMs":3269460,"endMs":3269740,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":444,"startMs":3269800,"endMs":3270920,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So you're fighting off that for what?","isAd":false},{"idx":445,"startMs":3270960,"endMs":3283600,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, it's like a corporate cancel culture, lawfare, like, all the things. On the corporate side of all of those things, remember I said, remember earlier we, we talked about, uh, business became politics.","isAd":false},{"idx":446,"startMs":3283980,"endMs":3285140,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"We were talking about this off camera.","isAd":false},{"idx":447,"startMs":3285180,"endMs":3285400,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"We... Yes.","isAd":false},{"idx":448,"startMs":3285420,"endMs":3286640,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Can you talk about this now?","isAd":false},{"idx":449,"startMs":3286760,"endMs":3286940,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":450,"startMs":3286960,"endMs":3286960,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":451,"startMs":3287000,"endMs":3328712,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So there was a, you know, in the 2010s, there was something that happened in the media, and it was that business became politics. If you just think about your favorite politician and just go on the internet today- Do you think you're gonna see a lot of happy-go-lucky stuff about your favorite politician? Like, of course not. We know that because politicians basically, just the nature of what it is they do, there's a lot of mudslinging and a lot of stuff, and a vast majority of it is just untrue. Um, though I, I'd say with some of our politicians today, maybe a lot of it is true.","isAd":false},{"idx":452,"startMs":3329292,"endMs":3358212,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But, but, you know, it's just a dog-eat-dog mudsling thing, and the headlines are often not true, which I think we know that in politics. What we didn't know in 2010s is that... or that was just starting to happen, was that business was becoming politics, that the headlines you were starting to read about business were just narratives and often fabrications with substantial material perversion of truth.","isAd":false},{"idx":453,"startMs":3359512,"endMs":3360932,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And you were exhibit A for this.","isAd":false},{"idx":454,"startMs":3361012,"endMs":3364032,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"For sure. I, I would, I would say so.","isAd":false},{"idx":455,"startMs":3364272,"endMs":3364452,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":456,"startMs":3364472,"endMs":3364692,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I mean-","isAd":false},{"idx":457,"startMs":3364732,"endMs":3365392,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"No, I would say so, too.","isAd":false},{"idx":458,"startMs":3365432,"endMs":3365672,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":459,"startMs":3365752,"endMs":3365872,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":460,"startMs":3366412,"endMs":3384232,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So, you know, like talk to anybody who knows me, they would basically say the difference between, especially if you talk about 10 years ago, the difference between the public persona and the actual person couldn't be more different. It's-","isAd":false},{"idx":461,"startMs":3384252,"endMs":3385672,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Well, I can sp- I can speak to this.","isAd":false},{"idx":462,"startMs":3385892,"endMs":3385952,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":463,"startMs":3385972,"endMs":3386372,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And I know y-","isAd":false},{"idx":464,"startMs":3386612,"endMs":3386752,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":465,"startMs":3386792,"endMs":3387752,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... w- when I, we-","isAd":false},{"idx":466,"startMs":3387952,"endMs":3387972,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":467,"startMs":3387972,"endMs":3390092,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... before we started recording, and I've been chasing you for a while.","isAd":false},{"idx":468,"startMs":3390132,"endMs":3390132,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":469,"startMs":3390152,"endMs":3392352,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That was a dinner, and then I saw you at Michael Dell's house-","isAd":false},{"idx":470,"startMs":3392412,"endMs":3392492,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":471,"startMs":3392492,"endMs":3408672,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... and everything else, which was funny, by the way, when you walked up to us, and I was like, \"Do you remember me?\" You go, you go, you're like, \"Yeah.\" And I go, \"It's time to do the fucking show.\" And you go, \"It's time to do the fucking show.\" I love that. But what I would say is just like i- in terms of founders that actually know their shit-","isAd":false},{"idx":472,"startMs":3408952,"endMs":3409112,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":473,"startMs":3409112,"endMs":3411452,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... your reputation is perfect.","isAd":false},{"idx":474,"startMs":3411692,"endMs":3411892,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":475,"startMs":3412072,"endMs":3414732,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Sterling. It was like if you're a killer entrepreneur-","isAd":false},{"idx":476,"startMs":3415052,"endMs":3415212,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm","isAd":false},{"idx":477,"startMs":3415832,"endMs":3417572,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... you say great things about Travis.","isAd":false},{"idx":478,"startMs":3417712,"endMs":3417972,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":479,"startMs":3418032,"endMs":3422272,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"It's... the only shit I've ever heard comes from, like, investors. This is why, again-","isAd":false},{"idx":480,"startMs":3422272,"endMs":3424912,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Don't necessarily believe it comes from investors, but it-","isAd":false},{"idx":481,"startMs":3425012,"endMs":3425872,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I'm saying what I hear","isAd":false},{"idx":482,"startMs":3425912,"endMs":3427772,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... yeah. No, it's interesting because where I-","isAd":false},{"idx":483,"startMs":3428052,"endMs":3428052,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":484,"startMs":3428072,"endMs":3443952,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... you know... Yeah, a lot of times it's from the, the gallery. Now, sometimes investors are in that category, but when I go and do pitches and fundraising, I don't feel like-","isAd":false},{"idx":485,"startMs":3444092,"endMs":3445352,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You're Travis Kalan... Come on, bro.","isAd":false},{"idx":486,"startMs":3445652,"endMs":3446212,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I'm just saying.","isAd":false},{"idx":487,"startMs":3446452,"endMs":3448032,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Fucking Travis. Come o-","isAd":false},{"idx":488,"startMs":3448092,"endMs":3448192,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I know.","isAd":false},{"idx":489,"startMs":3448252,"endMs":3451172,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Of course, like you, you're basically unlimited. So this is one-","isAd":false},{"idx":490,"startMs":3451212,"endMs":3451352,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":491,"startMs":3451372,"endMs":3457812,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... we... I was texting Daniel Eck about, uh, that I was gonna see you, and he wanted... He's like, \"You've gotta get him talking about fundraising,\" which we'll get to in a minute.","isAd":false},{"idx":492,"startMs":3457832,"endMs":3457872,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":493,"startMs":3457892,"endMs":3476392,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But I think we have to hit on something really important because what I loved about our dinner is you just straight interrupted me, which I loved, 'cause you should've, and, but I was trying to tell you, I was like, \"Man, listen, there's just something weird that all the content and the podcasts that entrepreneurs and founders are consuming are created by VCs.\" And you like...","isAd":false},{"idx":494,"startMs":3476532,"endMs":3476532,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":495,"startMs":3476552,"endMs":3483172,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And then I went to say another thing, and you cut me off. You put your, like, your hand in my face- ... which was hilarious. You're like, \"Real founders don't listen to VCs.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":496,"startMs":3484112,"endMs":3484172,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":497,"startMs":3484192,"endMs":3485072,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Uh, we need to talk about this-","isAd":false},{"idx":498,"startMs":3485132,"endMs":3485632,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, yeah. Okay","isAd":false},{"idx":499,"startMs":3485672,"endMs":3485972,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... because-","isAd":false},{"idx":500,"startMs":3486212,"endMs":3486392,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Sure","isAd":false},{"idx":501,"startMs":3486652,"endMs":3498012,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... if you're friends with founders, you hear atrocious horror stories and bad behavior by investors all the time that they will not sit, talk about publicly.","isAd":false},{"idx":502,"startMs":3498412,"endMs":3498532,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":503,"startMs":3498632,"endMs":3501372,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Right? You went through one of the worst of the worst.","isAd":false},{"idx":504,"startMs":3501412,"endMs":3501852,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":505,"startMs":3501892,"endMs":3512792,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Like, going back, it's like, is it just when you're doing Uber, is it just you raised money from the wrong people? What did you... How do you look at it now, and how could you... wh- what would you tell, like, a young founder now that has to raise a ton of money?","isAd":false},{"idx":506,"startMs":3513612,"endMs":3554732,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I always... I gotta do the... I gotta first shoot the arrow, which is you definitely shouldn't raise from benchmark capital. Gotta get that out there. Um, and then, okay, let's get into the real stuff. Um, look, I think it's really interesting to start with what... where, where did it get weird? I mean, basically at the peak... Uh, so 2017 was a, was my problem year, right? I mean, it was always hard, but this is when it got dialed up. And Benchmark was running a war room. They were an, an unspoken activist investor that was creating a once-a-week crisis,","isAd":false},{"idx":507,"startMs":3557232,"endMs":3558792,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"uh, but without-","isAd":false},{"idx":508,"startMs":3559832,"endMs":3560312,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Against you.","isAd":false},{"idx":509,"startMs":3560512,"endMs":3577392,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, against me, uh, without speaking of it. Again, there's some things I don't know, but the best I can see is that they wanted liquidity, and they felt like I wouldn't give it. We were already preparing for an IPO, but I didn't tell them that.","isAd":false},{"idx":510,"startMs":3577852,"endMs":3578672,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Why didn't you tell them that?","isAd":false},{"idx":511,"startMs":3580092,"endMs":3624372,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Because we wanted to sort of make sure we'd done the right thinking, got prepared, so we could just say, \"We're gonna do it, and here's how we're gonna do it.\" And Bill Gurley's a bit of a catastrophist. It's always the end of the world. Um, and so that forces you to do really weird things if you think the world is always going to end, including try to take me out. So instead of dealing with that catastrophism, let's just go do the damn thing bec- Uh, I give you lots of examples, like, uh, uh, I think on the... We had a, we had a fund raise in 2014, mid-2014, um,","isAd":false},{"idx":512,"startMs":3625612,"endMs":3668600,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"where the last round we did was in August '13, was $3.5 billion. That's when we brought Google and, um, Google and TPG in. And then mid-2014, so nine months later... Uh, that was 3.5 billion. Nine months later, we did a round. Gurley was, like, convinced it was the end of the world, and we got a raise. And just take your first term sheet, just fucking take it. And yeah, I have a whole philosophy on this, which is, like, if you want a round to go well and to go fast, you have to have a process. If you just go take the first term sheet- Getting the round done will actually take longer","isAd":false},{"idx":513,"startMs":3669620,"endMs":3689720,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"because there's no alternatives. You don't have alternatives, and then it gets weird. And then the VC will just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, push- getting more and more and more and more, and it gets weird to a point where it actually becomes highly likely that the deal just blows up. So I like to say, \"Never get attached to a price, I get attached to a process.\" That process is about excellence in fundraising. Anyways-","isAd":false},{"idx":514,"startMs":3689920,"endMs":3691100,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Can you explain that process, though?","isAd":false},{"idx":515,"startMs":3691160,"endMs":3691720,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"We'll get there.","isAd":false},{"idx":516,"startMs":3691900,"endMs":3692080,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":517,"startMs":3692400,"endMs":3692780,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":518,"startMs":3692820,"endMs":3693460,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Don't let me forget.","isAd":false},{"idx":519,"startMs":3693560,"endMs":3701060,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I won't. BFS. Okay? We're gonna have to sit here for ten hours to cover everything.","isAd":false},{"idx":520,"startMs":3701140,"endMs":3701480,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's fine, bro.","isAd":false},{"idx":521,"startMs":3701520,"endMs":3741860,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But he was convinced, like, \"Hey, just take the first deal. Like, just do a six billion dollar...\" It was like, \"I think you could get a six billion dollar round valuation done right now. It's nine months after the three and a half. Just go take the first term sheet and make it happen.\" Now, if you're a founder hearing that, and you're just like ... You're like, \"Dude, I hear you, but even if the world is about to end, the best thing you can do is have alternatives, and the deal will actually get done faster.\" So we got to a place where, like, I just wouldn't talk to him and not...","isAd":false},{"idx":522,"startMs":3742240,"endMs":3757900,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"If he reached out to me, I would re- I would talk to him, but, like, I just wouldn't try to engage because it was always that. So Emil Michael would handle this part. He would handle a lot of the, the investor relations, especially as it relates to them.","isAd":false},{"idx":523,"startMs":3757920,"endMs":3760020,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Sh-shout out Emil Michael. That dude is loyal as hell to you.","isAd":false},{"idx":524,"startMs":3760220,"endMs":3781060,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, he's a, just an awesome guy. Not because of loyalty, but because he's just an awesome guy. But of course that too. And he would do it in a genuine, authentic way, like try to handle the con- the ob- the objections or whatever. Anyways, two months later, we got a round done at a seventeen and a half billion pre.","isAd":false},{"idx":525,"startMs":3782940,"endMs":3783300,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Whoa.","isAd":false},{"idx":526,"startMs":3784100,"endMs":3825340,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So that's my point. So when you want to do things right, you gotta do things right, and VCs don't... Uh, not all, but many, most, they're just... They're worried about other things. So we were already planning IPO stuff. They didn't know it, but they also never expressed the desire to. Like, \"Hey, dude, you got a IPO.\" It was never brought up. So it was like this weird cast- catastrophism mixed with if you think the world's about to end, and you've got this thing that's worth a ton of money,","isAd":false},{"idx":527,"startMs":3826840,"endMs":3852480,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"y-you could get to a weird place, especially when you're in a VC. You don't have any control. You're not, like, running anything. So now you're like, \"Your entire holy shit big... Your outcomes in life are due to this guy,\" and you think the world's about to end, and he doesn't. You're like, you could get into a place where you're running a war room to destroy him, and that's, that's kinda what happened.","isAd":false},{"idx":528,"startMs":3853220,"endMs":3861280,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What's the alternative scenario if you raised just from somebody that wouldn't have done that? Like, I'm just gonna make this up, but, like, how Founders Fund says they... No matter what, they'll never remove a founder.","isAd":false},{"idx":529,"startMs":3861360,"endMs":3861360,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No.","isAd":false},{"idx":530,"startMs":3861360,"endMs":3864200,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"They'll not do, like, a warfare or a war room against them.","isAd":false},{"idx":531,"startMs":3864240,"endMs":3874780,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, it... I think there's two parts. So first, I'd say the most... The, the, the... Actually, a super high bar for a VC is do no harm. There's a lot of reasons why that's hard for a VC.","isAd":false},{"idx":532,"startMs":3875640,"endMs":3877320,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Elaborate, please. This is important, man.","isAd":false},{"idx":533,"startMs":3877360,"endMs":3877440,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":534,"startMs":3877480,"endMs":3878540,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"No one talks about this shit.","isAd":false},{"idx":535,"startMs":3879280,"endMs":3906680,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Everybody wants to make a mark on the world. Everybody wants to make a mark on the world, and you might believe one thing or another. You wanna make a mark on the world. And the, the way I think about it is an operator who's running a company is a, i-if they're good, is a grandmaster of chess.","isAd":false},{"idx":536,"startMs":3906920,"endMs":3907140,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":537,"startMs":3908580,"endMs":3953260,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"The VC... And by the way, that grandmaster of chess, this operator entrepreneur, is playing this chess match somewhere between sixty and eighty hours a week and is like, really knows this thing, and it's like knows many moves ahead and, uh, just sees things other people don't see, and they're in it as well. And the VC is a chess enthusiast, and they check in on the chess match once every three months, and they're, like, trying to make a mark on the world. They have an opinion.","isAd":false},{"idx":538,"startMs":3953960,"endMs":3997740,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"They're trying to make a mark. \"Hey, why don't you do this or that?\" And you're like you know, uh, \"Don't go to Jordan and tell him how to dunk, and definitely don't go to him and tell him how to dribble.\" But it's hard because everybody has an opinion, and you believe... Whatever you believe, you really believe it, but, like, if you're not in the thing all in, all the way, every day, twelve to sixteen hours a day on this game, it ain't a thing. But that's a hard thing for most people to take who aren't running shit.","isAd":false},{"idx":539,"startMs":3998240,"endMs":3999680,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Why do you think it's harder for them to take?","isAd":false},{"idx":540,"startMs":4000580,"endMs":4045576,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Because VCs are, uh, glamorized, and they have a seat at the table in some fashion, and there are certain powers. You can make a mark, and so it's sort of like the way to think about it is you're on the Serengeti and, uh, like, if an antelope limps in the Serengeti, the lion will take it down even if it's not hungry. Can't even fucking help it. Uh, it's just what is-- what he does, and that's kind of the nature of most VCs. This, the na- the nature of it is they will...","isAd":false},{"idx":541,"startMs":4045816,"endMs":4059216,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"If the, if you are on the Serengeti and limping, you will, you will be eaten. It's just the nature of it, and the, the lion doesn't even know why sometimes. They're just like, \"Uh, this is what I do.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":542,"startMs":4059636,"endMs":4066036,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah. So when you're talking to f- other founders, younger founders, you're saying priority number one is just find an investor that does no harm?","isAd":false},{"idx":543,"startMs":4067056,"endMs":4068436,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That would be a high bar.","isAd":false},{"idx":544,"startMs":4069316,"endMs":4071756,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So achievable what percentage of the time then you would guess?","isAd":false},{"idx":545,"startMs":4072056,"endMs":4072696,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Ten percent.","isAd":false},{"idx":546,"startMs":4073956,"endMs":4074196,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":547,"startMs":4075236,"endMs":4114236,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And then the one percent is helpful. But it's hard. How the fuck are they supposed to be helpful? There's different times to be helpful though. Helpful is hard times, is when you actually need real help, right? Uh, helpful is... There, you know, maybe it's personnel, like you need epic people, but it's still like hard, hard for them to participate because they're just not in it that deep.","isAd":false},{"idx":548,"startMs":4114836,"endMs":4115156,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So can you-","isAd":false},{"idx":549,"startMs":4115376,"endMs":4115476,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":550,"startMs":4115476,"endMs":4120736,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... explain, explain excellence in the fundraising process and how you think about it, the system you developed for this?","isAd":false},{"idx":551,"startMs":4121836,"endMs":4161296,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, and it, it could be changing over time, but I m- like I certainly have my approach. It's interesting because I've just, I'm just finishing a fundraise right now, and it's, it's interesting to see the world change. But I think part of what we're seeing right now is we're in a, we're in a super cycle or like a super high. We're in a hype... I don't wanna call it hype cycle, but like in a, a very bullish cycle right now, which means different things happen than if it's sort of average. When it's average, it's super important to tell a beautiful story that's","isAd":false},{"idx":552,"startMs":4162276,"endMs":4206636,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"woven f- like that, that, that's, that's, uh, like a story that numbers are woven through. It's a, it's a s- it's a beautiful, entertaining, interesting story with analytical numbers woven through it, and you basically get to what I would call QED, which is you've dissected the chess match to such a degree that it's very clear what it takes to win and that you have the winning formula. And you get to the end of the thing, and you're like, \"It's just proven. It's not even like a question anymore. It's QED.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":553,"startMs":4207616,"endMs":4222256,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's in normal times, and I think in super cycles or whatever we wanna call, you know, kinda what's going on right now, that rigor's not as important, and if you go too far on that rigor, it could be too much.","isAd":false},{"idx":554,"startMs":4222656,"endMs":4223176,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Explain that.","isAd":false},{"idx":555,"startMs":4223816,"endMs":4248116,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You hear stories of entrepreneurs that just sit down around a table and then have an idea, and they get money. That's the opposite of QED. But if you have a two-hour long presentation that goes QED in a super cycle, you probably should shorten that to forty-five minutes.","isAd":false},{"idx":556,"startMs":4248676,"endMs":4248836,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Why?","isAd":false},{"idx":557,"startMs":4249956,"endMs":4255016,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I don't know how to put it. It just looks like too much. Like why are you going so far, dude? What? What's your-","isAd":false},{"idx":558,"startMs":4255056,"endMs":4255696,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You'll talk yourself out of the deal?","isAd":false},{"idx":559,"startMs":4255716,"endMs":4256576,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... is something wrong?","isAd":false},{"idx":560,"startMs":4256636,"endMs":4257456,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah, you'll talk yourself out of the deal.","isAd":false},{"idx":561,"startMs":4257476,"endMs":4286276,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Why are you so detailed? It's this weird d- dynamic. It's very funny. Like it's cool, bro. You know? Maybe it's also because you're, you're projecting many years out so, so the more super cycle you're in, the more forward you are, the more into the future you are, and that future can't really be presented as tightly with numbers.","isAd":false},{"idx":562,"startMs":4286316,"endMs":4288136,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah, so what are you talking two hours for? You don't know.","isAd":false},{"idx":563,"startMs":4288576,"endMs":4316536,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So then it's about the theory of the case. That's probably the way to think about it, is that a mix of super cycle plus the speed at which technology is moving and the sort of true exponential inflection that can occur, you're talking three to five years out. There's almost no set of numbers today that can QED the five-year thing at this crazy hundred x situation that's probably gonna occur.","isAd":false},{"idx":564,"startMs":4316856,"endMs":4317056,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":565,"startMs":4317516,"endMs":4323516,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So then you have to talk about the theory of it in many ways, and so maybe that's why it's a little bit different today.","isAd":false},{"idx":566,"startMs":4323696,"endMs":4326596,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What's the common, uh, in your approach in a normal cycle-","isAd":false},{"idx":567,"startMs":4326976,"endMs":4326976,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":568,"startMs":4326976,"endMs":4328216,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... and the super cycle as you just described here?","isAd":false},{"idx":569,"startMs":4328236,"endMs":4330376,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Normal cycle is two hours QED.","isAd":false},{"idx":570,"startMs":4330876,"endMs":4333556,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What is something that you'll use in both, whether it's normal or super?","isAd":false},{"idx":571,"startMs":4333756,"endMs":4337076,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, I still do some version of... I, my style is QED.","isAd":false},{"idx":572,"startMs":4337476,"endMs":4338956,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And then the multiple bids thing is mand-","isAd":false},{"idx":573,"startMs":4338976,"endMs":4339276,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And also, yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":574,"startMs":4339276,"endMs":4339996,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... is mandatory, correct?","isAd":false},{"idx":575,"startMs":4340016,"endMs":4361636,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, so while I would call it... So it's QED is the storytelling, and then there's sort of like a, an auction process that you hone if a, when you're doing it right now. This has to be measured against how many resources you have to do QED and how much deal resources you have to manage a full auction.","isAd":false},{"idx":576,"startMs":4362036,"endMs":4362756,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Explain that part to me.","isAd":false},{"idx":577,"startMs":4362856,"endMs":4372536,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Like if I have five rooms going at the same time, I have to have... The, that's a thing that you... five rooms simultaneous for an entire week.","isAd":false},{"idx":578,"startMs":4373436,"endMs":4374376,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Where'd you even get that idea?","isAd":false},{"idx":579,"startMs":4375716,"endMs":4387276,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It was just the expression of the right thing. It, it's, it's sort of like if you keep incrementing on something and keep making it better and better, you will end up there.","isAd":false},{"idx":580,"startMs":4387696,"endMs":4390776,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What was the quality of the business when you were running this like five-room process?","isAd":false},{"idx":581,"startMs":4391396,"endMs":4392096,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That's peak Uber.","isAd":false},{"idx":582,"startMs":4392556,"endMs":4392816,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Peak.","isAd":false},{"idx":583,"startMs":4392976,"endMs":4392976,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":584,"startMs":4393016,"endMs":4398196,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So it's like there, it's like you can put money to this or nothing, nothing's even close. So if you don't get this deal-","isAd":false},{"idx":585,"startMs":4398196,"endMs":4399116,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There are other things. No, there are other things-","isAd":false},{"idx":586,"startMs":4399156,"endMs":4399256,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah, but-","isAd":false},{"idx":587,"startMs":4399256,"endMs":4418568,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... but it was peak Uber, but the point was I did it QED. So I showed at the atomic level how the whole system works with a, with a very analytical view, but also sort of a bit of performance art, 'cause you're storytelling.","isAd":false},{"idx":588,"startMs":4419008,"endMs":4420588,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay, explain what's happening in these five rooms then.","isAd":false},{"idx":589,"startMs":4421588,"endMs":4424428,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Five rooms, 12 hours, one week.","isAd":false},{"idx":590,"startMs":4425048,"endMs":4427428,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Who's in the rooms? You don't have to say the people, but like-","isAd":false},{"idx":591,"startMs":4427428,"endMs":4450088,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No, it's okay. So I'm in the $250 million checker over room. Then there's like a $100 million room and a $50 million room and a $25 million room, and there'll be a guy in the $25 million room who's like, uh... who works for a guy, who works for a guy, who works for me. Right?","isAd":false},{"idx":592,"startMs":4451468,"endMs":4453548,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And what are you guys saying in, in all these rooms?","isAd":false},{"idx":593,"startMs":4454248,"endMs":4455168,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"We're telling the story.","isAd":false},{"idx":594,"startMs":4455368,"endMs":4455628,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":595,"startMs":4455948,"endMs":4457308,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That story is the core-","isAd":false},{"idx":596,"startMs":4457468,"endMs":4457688,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm","isAd":false},{"idx":597,"startMs":4457688,"endMs":4461048,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... and now you have it being performed in four rooms at a time.","isAd":false},{"idx":598,"startMs":4461808,"endMs":4464508,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And there's this dead- deadline. The price is going up.","isAd":false},{"idx":599,"startMs":4464848,"endMs":4468748,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, no, it's not prices going up, so that's the mis- that's the misunderstanding.","isAd":false},{"idx":600,"startMs":4468868,"endMs":4469048,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":601,"startMs":4469368,"endMs":4472688,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"The right way to do it is to start with a low price.","isAd":false},{"idx":602,"startMs":4473148,"endMs":4473608,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Explain that.","isAd":false},{"idx":603,"startMs":4474088,"endMs":4512628,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So a lot of entrepreneurs, they go and they say they really have a... Remember I said, \"Attached to a process, not a price.\" So a lot of entrepreneurs will get attached to the price and not the process, and you have to be careful. It's very easy to get sucked into that, where you're like, you get some signal that it should be a price, and you get attached to it, and then that becomes your price, but you haven't cleared the market. So you have to be very careful about that. So you get attached to the price, and so then when I throw a price out, you're on the other side of the table, and you like, you come in under it, and now we negotiate, right? It's a very bad place to be from my perspective.","isAd":false},{"idx":604,"startMs":4512928,"endMs":4554788,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Uh, where you really wanna be is you wanna start at a low price and say, \"Look, I don't know where the price is gonna go, but I know it's at least here.\" And if it's low, then he's like, \"Okay.\" Now, once they give you that read, once they lean forward like that, you're like, \"Okay, we're good.\" You have a bidder, and then you go to the next guy. It depends on how... the nature of the round. If you're doing a winner-takes-all round, then you would just go to the next guy, and you would then say whatever that guy said, X plus five, whatever.","isAd":false},{"idx":605,"startMs":4555428,"endMs":4555608,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":606,"startMs":4555608,"endMs":4571848,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"X plus Y here. Just say X plus five, and that guy does the same thing, and then you go to the next guy, and then it's X plus five plus five, and the next guy, X plus five plus five plus five, and all the while, while that's happening, it's a winner-takes-all deal.","isAd":false},{"idx":607,"startMs":4572068,"endMs":4572248,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":608,"startMs":4572768,"endMs":4599128,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You go back to the original guy, and you're like, \"Dude, it's going up. It's going up,\" and you're telling people it's going up. That's a winner-takes-all approach. And then you sort of do it going once, going twice, like when you start to peak out, where it's like people are getting a little... it's starting to get a little high altitude, sweaty. Then you're like, \"Okay, going once, going twice. Sold.\" And then you close it down, and winner takes all, and they take the deal.","isAd":false},{"idx":609,"startMs":4599228,"endMs":4599308,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":610,"startMs":4599728,"endMs":4635868,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But most deals that are big deals today are not working that way. When you're doing mul- multiple rooms at a time in something like this, it's more like, uh, how much would you put in at this price, and how much would you put in, let's call it, I'm just making this up, eight billion, and how much would you put in at nine, and how much would you put in at 10? How much would you put in at 12? How much would you put in at 14? Fill the sheet out. You decide how much you'd put in at any, any price that we end up at, and you do that across everybody. And it-","isAd":false},{"idx":611,"startMs":4635868,"endMs":4636688,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Is that what you're doing now?","isAd":false},{"idx":612,"startMs":4637488,"endMs":4637948,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Hold on.","isAd":false},{"idx":613,"startMs":4638048,"endMs":4638148,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":614,"startMs":4638228,"endMs":4682928,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Slow down. Slow down. Then you aggregate how much demand I have at every price, so as the price gets higher, the demand goes down. You now have your demand curve. And you're like, \"Okay, I wanna raise a billion.\" So but at the really low price, I have three billion of demand. At the higher price, eventually I have a billion dollars' worth of demand, and I go, \"Okay, that's the price that I could close at right now.\" Then you go and tell all the people that, that got cut out because they didn't get high enough of a price, there's less demand at this price, which means there's certain people that didn't bid here. You go tell them they're out, and you're like, \"But you could fill out another sheet if you wanna make some moves.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":615,"startMs":4683368,"endMs":4694248,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So they fill out the sheet. You do the demand curve again. Everything moves a little bit to the right, and there's other guys that now get pushed out, and you do it one more time, and then you clean it, and you're done.","isAd":false},{"idx":616,"startMs":4694848,"endMs":4695488,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So what are you doing now?","isAd":false},{"idx":617,"startMs":4696328,"endMs":4697328,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I'm about to close a deal.","isAd":false},{"idx":618,"startMs":4697988,"endMs":4700508,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Do you wanna say how you did it though? You don't have to say numbers, but like-","isAd":false},{"idx":619,"startMs":4700588,"endMs":4701428,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No, I, I can't-","isAd":false},{"idx":620,"startMs":4701428,"endMs":4701488,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I'm just-","isAd":false},{"idx":621,"startMs":4701528,"endMs":4702328,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I can't do that. No.","isAd":false},{"idx":622,"startMs":4702388,"endMs":4702708,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":623,"startMs":4702768,"endMs":4703348,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I can't do that.","isAd":false},{"idx":624,"startMs":4703388,"endMs":4704028,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay. Fair enough.","isAd":false},{"idx":625,"startMs":4704028,"endMs":4704688,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"No, it's fair, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":626,"startMs":4704748,"endMs":4706008,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Come back on in a few months, and you can break it.","isAd":false},{"idx":627,"startMs":4706028,"endMs":4710688,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, it'll be like, yeah, a couple years, I'll go, \"Here's how this one went.\" You gotta put time in between-","isAd":false},{"idx":628,"startMs":4710768,"endMs":4710868,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay","isAd":false},{"idx":629,"startMs":4710948,"endMs":4717888,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... 'cause it's like you just did a deal. You know what I mean? But I, I would say I did a, a, a slightly different, slightly different this time around.","isAd":false},{"idx":630,"startMs":4718748,"endMs":4729428,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I'm very curious how you protect yourself from what happened with Benchmark and Uber from ever happening to you again. So how are you selecting? 'Cause that's just obviously the price.","isAd":false},{"idx":631,"startMs":4729848,"endMs":4729988,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Look-","isAd":false},{"idx":632,"startMs":4730068,"endMs":4730988,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You're not taking the highest bidder.","isAd":false},{"idx":633,"startMs":4731028,"endMs":4731028,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You know-","isAd":false},{"idx":634,"startMs":4731048,"endMs":4732288,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Like how are you picking your partners?","isAd":false},{"idx":635,"startMs":4732388,"endMs":4747648,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, you have to also be careful. Like, um, there can be... You gotta be really careful not to get into victim mentality, and what I mean by that is what was my part in that, in that dynamic, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":636,"startMs":4747688,"endMs":4755548,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I was thinking while you were speaking, I was like, what if we could ask them what would they want you to do that you weren't doing? Maybe say, \"Hey, we're about to fuck an IPO.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":637,"startMs":4756388,"endMs":4756688,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Right. For sure.","isAd":false},{"idx":638,"startMs":4756688,"endMs":4757208,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Might be one of them.","isAd":false},{"idx":639,"startMs":4757468,"endMs":4768868,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"That probably would've saved me. But also, like I didn't kiss the ring. I think Gurley wanted to feel like- Homietown with me and just never was","isAd":false},{"idx":640,"startMs":4769208,"endMs":4771528,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Homietown to me is different than kissing a ring though","isAd":false},{"idx":641,"startMs":4771928,"endMs":4773468,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It, but it, it, it's similar","isAd":false},{"idx":642,"startMs":4773768,"endMs":4773928,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay","isAd":false},{"idx":643,"startMs":4773988,"endMs":4801088,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay? Just put it in that category. We don't have to fucking go there. So, so that's ... There's that. That's one thing I could've done differently, for sure, would've changed everything. Um, there are people inside of the company who became his partner to do the coup. Those individuals shouldn't have been there. Okay?","isAd":false},{"idx":644,"startMs":4801128,"endMs":4802468,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Did you suspect them at all before?","isAd":false},{"idx":645,"startMs":4803228,"endMs":4803528,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes","isAd":false},{"idx":646,"startMs":4804808,"endMs":4805088,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Wow","isAd":false},{"idx":647,"startMs":4805628,"endMs":4848908,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There was definitely something wrong is what I would say. Okay? Let's put it that way. Every decision I made at Uber, defend to this day. Like, I wasn't 100% correct, but always good intentions and always coming from the right place. Generally just did the right thing. Yeah? One of my lawyers put it this way, he's like, um, you know, \"Did you ... If you're...\" Like, he, he sort of made a sporting or a a- like a, like a sports analogy, which is like, \"Do you have chalk on your shoe?\" Would be like, kinda going out of bounds or doing something you shouldn't have done. And I'm like, \"Never had chalk on my shoe.\" But in order to know,","isAd":false},{"idx":648,"startMs":4850408,"endMs":4891888,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"you would need an electromagnetic scanning microscope to see with reverse angle, with slow mo replay, to verify that there's no chalk on the shoe. So the problem was is I ran too close to the line in too many situations, that it, it cr- it ... When you are big and important, the scrutiny and the expectation is that you don't run that close to the line, even if it's correct. And that is a thing I definitely did not understand. Um, and it comes from what I did before Uber, which was I was doing a really hard startup.","isAd":false},{"idx":649,"startMs":4892508,"endMs":4933108,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"First four years, no salary, ran out of money several times. Like, super grind, like, lose all friends. Like, everything's ... I, it was just the hardest kind of ... I, I like to say the non-luckiest entrepreneur journey of all time You can't call it unlucky, I eventually sold, but like, you definitely would never call it lucky, that's for damn sure. But basically, it was so hard that I had to be sort of epically precise and hardcore just to pay the bills and go to the grocery store next week.","isAd":false},{"idx":650,"startMs":4934908,"endMs":4949108,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And that precision and intensity made Uber what it was, but I was running a $70 billion company the way somebody who thought he was gonna starve next week would run it","isAd":false},{"idx":651,"startMs":4949768,"endMs":4950528,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That is fascinating","isAd":false},{"idx":652,"startMs":4950588,"endMs":4961908,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Like, super intense precision, perfection, obsession because he's not sure that he's gonna be able to pay the grocery bill next week","isAd":false},{"idx":653,"startMs":4962908,"endMs":4970768,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Did you understand you were, that was your approach at the time you had that approach? Or you had to leave and look back and figure it out?","isAd":false},{"idx":654,"startMs":4971008,"endMs":4989048,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's a little, probably a little bit of both, yeah. But I take pride in that. At the time, it was like a pride in going all the way. But like, not maybe understanding every ... uh, uh, understanding it the way I understand it today","isAd":false},{"idx":655,"startMs":4989748,"endMs":4997988,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I wonder how much of that is a benefit. Like, you're, you're super, you're one of those most aggressive founders in history. You're wiser, more experienced now-","isAd":false},{"idx":656,"startMs":4998608,"endMs":4998608,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":657,"startMs":4998608,"endMs":5000248,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... more access to resources, better network.","isAd":false},{"idx":658,"startMs":5000268,"endMs":5000268,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":659,"startMs":5000328,"endMs":5002108,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I wonder if this version of you-","isAd":false},{"idx":660,"startMs":5002228,"endMs":5002368,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm","isAd":false},{"idx":661,"startMs":5002388,"endMs":5008348,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... could compete with that version, or that aggressiveness is just what the, the ... You, you created the entire category","isAd":false},{"idx":662,"startMs":5008428,"endMs":5017388,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, no, I understand. It would be super fun if there was a universe where I could compete with my younger self. That would be fucking awesome. I would love that so much. I would kick his ass","isAd":false},{"idx":663,"startMs":5017608,"endMs":5018008,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You ... Okay","isAd":false},{"idx":664,"startMs":5019988,"endMs":5061948,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Now, there'd be certain things he's doing because he's younger, and there's a, there's a certain thing to that. Remember I talked about the, um, the, the passion for right and wrong, right? As an example. There's something to that. But also what I notice today is most of the things that would take me X amount of time 10 years ago, I can do in X divided by three today. And not because I got Claude over there. Right? Like, that's a whole separate thing. I'm just saying, like, like, I don't know, you read my Adam's Vision note.","isAd":false},{"idx":665,"startMs":5062328,"endMs":5062408,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":666,"startMs":5062728,"endMs":5080128,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Okay? That would've taken me ... I don't even know if I could've written that back in the day. Like, not that good. I can just flow and get it done. Like, the core of that was written in an hour and a half.","isAd":false},{"idx":667,"startMs":5080408,"endMs":5080748,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":668,"startMs":5080788,"endMs":5081608,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You know, that kinda thing","isAd":false},{"idx":669,"startMs":5082508,"endMs":5085228,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"What is it that acce- uh, caused you to accelerate now though?","isAd":false},{"idx":670,"startMs":5085688,"endMs":5112988,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"There's different things. So, like, um, a lot of early founders have a fear of failure. But what that does is it creates blockage around progress, about ma- ma- making progress, 'cause you're, you're just, you're bogged down. The psyche around fear of failure fucks with your ability to, to get there","isAd":false},{"idx":671,"startMs":5113848,"endMs":5118108,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Well, the fear of failure could either stand in your way, or it could push you from behind, right? Where like-","isAd":false},{"idx":672,"startMs":5118128,"endMs":5123328,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It could push you from behind, but ultimately you will never be truly world-class if you have a fear of failure","isAd":false},{"idx":673,"startMs":5123748,"endMs":5128548,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But how many entrepreneurs have you met where they said, like, \"The fear of failure is greater than the love of success\"?","isAd":false},{"idx":674,"startMs":5128988,"endMs":5136020,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I understand that. I'm just saying that- It will get you places, but it won't get you all the way","isAd":false},{"idx":675,"startMs":5136660,"endMs":5140560,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay, in that version of Travis where you're running a seventy billion dollar com- company-","isAd":false},{"idx":676,"startMs":5140600,"endMs":5143380,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, no, I would say I was transitioning out of fear of failure","isAd":false},{"idx":677,"startMs":5143620,"endMs":5144760,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Towards the end in two thousand seventeen?","isAd":false},{"idx":678,"startMs":5144800,"endMs":5150320,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Just, just, just, just, let's just say, like we don't have to put a specific date. It's just a spectrum. It's a-","isAd":false},{"idx":679,"startMs":5150420,"endMs":5150520,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":680,"startMs":5150560,"endMs":5158340,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"... and just I'm transitioning out of it because remember where I came from, it's just before. So I'm transitioning out of fear of failure.","isAd":false},{"idx":681,"startMs":5158580,"endMs":5159760,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"How old were you when you started Uber?","isAd":false},{"idx":682,"startMs":5160520,"endMs":5161980,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Thirty-three.","isAd":false},{"idx":683,"startMs":5162160,"endMs":5165380,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Thirty-three, and you had a couple million bucks, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":684,"startMs":5165420,"endMs":5167840,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, I-- that I put all into all my friends' startups.","isAd":false},{"idx":685,"startMs":5168400,"endMs":5168600,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":686,"startMs":5168900,"endMs":5169360,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I had nothing.","isAd":false},{"idx":687,"startMs":5169720,"endMs":5169980,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah, so-","isAd":false},{"idx":688,"startMs":5170080,"endMs":5170740,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's kinda funny.","isAd":false},{"idx":689,"startMs":5171100,"endMs":5171180,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":690,"startMs":5171600,"endMs":5172520,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's kinda funny. Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":691,"startMs":5172560,"endMs":5173180,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Did that work out?","isAd":false},{"idx":692,"startMs":5173780,"endMs":5184500,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So I was the first investor in Expensify. Uh, there's like a healthcare IT company that still hasn't gone public. It's really funny.","isAd":false},{"idx":693,"startMs":5184780,"endMs":5187960,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Okay, so not a lot of resources, still young. Thirty-three is still young.","isAd":false},{"idx":694,"startMs":5188440,"endMs":5188440,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":695,"startMs":5188480,"endMs":5191080,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So you c-- it, it makes sense why you felt the way you felt.","isAd":false},{"idx":696,"startMs":5191880,"endMs":5199100,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, but it, it's, it's just about the background. It's just about what the previous experience was, not about my age per se.","isAd":false},{"idx":697,"startMs":5199280,"endMs":5199500,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":698,"startMs":5199760,"endMs":5202540,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It was just about what experience I'd just come out of.","isAd":false},{"idx":699,"startMs":5202860,"endMs":5204240,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So I love where the conversation has gone because-","isAd":false},{"idx":700,"startMs":5204280,"endMs":5204300,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":701,"startMs":5204660,"endMs":5214080,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... what I'm hearing from you is, like, there's just this theme that runs through you as a person and then your approach to company building throughout these companies. So we barely touched on what you're doing now.","isAd":false},{"idx":702,"startMs":5214440,"endMs":5214600,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":703,"startMs":5214640,"endMs":5216620,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Like, let's get into atoms.","isAd":false},{"idx":704,"startMs":5216780,"endMs":5216900,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":705,"startMs":5217260,"endMs":5224440,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And you said you wanted to start, uh, with the mission, where it says, \"Physical automation to transform industry and move the world.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":706,"startMs":5224900,"endMs":5267380,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"AI and robotics to totally transform industries, but one industry at a time, and specialized robotics to do so. So for instance, if you want to make a thousand pancakes an hour, you wouldn't have a humanoid do it. If you wanted to get a car to move down the street, you wouldn't have a humanoid drive it. I think humanoids have their place, which is, let's call it low-scale tasks in human design-- e-e-environments designed for humans. So ex-example, you're in a house.","isAd":false},{"idx":707,"startMs":5271100,"endMs":5315260,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Clothes need to be folded. But it's not like you're folding clothes all day long. It's one of the things, but there's no way you'd buy a robot for tens of thousands of dollars to just fold clothes because it's just not big enough of a problem. So now you need a machine that can do many different types of things in the home. So it needs to fold clothes, it needs to take out the trash, probably needs to wash dishes. There's like a bunch of things. But that's a very generalized thing. It has to be able to do a lot of different things, and it's in a very human environment. The best form factor is a humanoid for this thing. But I'll bring up the thousand pancakes an hour. Imagine a humanoid making pancakes.","isAd":false},{"idx":708,"startMs":5315300,"endMs":5351660,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, it would make it like a human. It would be like, Okay? And by the way, if you were just making pancakes at a home once a week on a Sunday, because you need a machine that can do many different things, including make pancakes, it's all good. But if you needed to do a thousand an hour, you'd probably need like, I don't know, a hundred humanoids in a row doing this, right? Versus a very simple iron apparatus where the batter gets pushed into it, it's hot already, and it's pushing out like maybe even like a hundred pancakes every few minutes.","isAd":false},{"idx":709,"startMs":5351800,"endMs":5351980,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":710,"startMs":5352400,"endMs":5394100,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You know what I mean? So specialized robotics, uh, specialized, uh, machines that are specialized for the task at hand is sort of how I look at what we do. And so industrial scale where there's real change to an industry by automating the whole thing, and so you go, \"Okay, well, I've got a lot going on in food already.\" The idea is, can you get a meal that's prepared and delivered to you so efficient that it starts to approach the cost of going to the grocery store? Pretty awesome if you could. And it's gotta be a high-quality meal, of course. But, like,","isAd":false},{"idx":711,"startMs":5395200,"endMs":5433760,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"the, the, the question mark there, can you, requires you to have what I would call industrial real estate for food e-commerce. What do I mean, food e-commerce? We know what e-commerce is. It's got Amazon warehouses everywhere or like major hubs like big distribution centers, DCs. But food e-commerce is a little different. You-- It is a warehouse type. You need to do logistics from it, but you also need to do manufacturing. Like, there's no manufacturing that's happening at an Amazon warehouse because everything's manufactured somewhere, it gets delivered to this big warehouse, and then it goes from there. But with food, it has a thirty-minute half-life,","isAd":false},{"idx":712,"startMs":5434580,"endMs":5475520,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"so the manufacturing, the logistics has to happen at the same place, and it always has to be fifteen minutes from where you are. So now you have a very different situation where you have real estate in urban and suburban environments that's always fifteen minutes from anybody. So you have an urban logistics fabric l- uh, pr-production and logistics fabric across a city, which is I have the real estate, then I have robots, uh, robotic food production, 'cause then I'm taking the labor cost out, and then I have robotic logistics because right now your fifteen dollar bowl that then gets delivered to you somehow became thirty bucks.","isAd":false},{"idx":713,"startMs":5476060,"endMs":5476360,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":714,"startMs":5478380,"endMs":5484100,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's of course expensive to produce, but every time there's a drop by a courier, that's another twelve bucks.","isAd":false},{"idx":715,"startMs":5484480,"endMs":5484680,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":716,"startMs":5484900,"endMs":5490580,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Industrial real estate, robotic production, robotic couriers. And then-","isAd":false},{"idx":717,"startMs":5490620,"endMs":5492840,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Was there a specific reason you, you started with food, though?","isAd":false},{"idx":718,"startMs":5494672,"endMs":5504132,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It just caught me. I mean, like that is like I don't have a list. Well, first of all, of course, I did Uber Eats, so like very familiar with this part of things.","isAd":false},{"idx":719,"startMs":5504152,"endMs":5504212,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":720,"startMs":5504632,"endMs":5509112,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But nowhere close to the atoms that are necessary to do what I just described.","isAd":false},{"idx":721,"startMs":5509432,"endMs":5509612,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":722,"startMs":5510252,"endMs":5516632,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You know, I, I like to say, like I have lots of ideas all the time. I mean, I, I'm an idea factory.","isAd":false},{"idx":723,"startMs":5516752,"endMs":5516872,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":724,"startMs":5517212,"endMs":5541992,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But other people have great ideas too. But like an idea comes to you or comes to you, if that makes sense. And I like to say, you know, you go out on a date with the idea, like, was it a good date? Did it, did it go well? Like, how did you and the idea get along? And it's very much related to, like who are you is going to be a big part of which idea works for you.","isAd":false},{"idx":725,"startMs":5542372,"endMs":5543812,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You call this finding your sport.","isAd":false},{"idx":726,"startMs":5544272,"endMs":5548132,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah, finding your sport or your business soulmate.","isAd":false},{"idx":727,"startMs":5548472,"endMs":5548692,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":728,"startMs":5549352,"endMs":5556092,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Be in touch with who you are, and then when the right idea comes your way, you just know. You just know.","isAd":false},{"idx":729,"startMs":5556612,"endMs":5559732,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I thought I, I understood how you thought.","isAd":false},{"idx":730,"startMs":5560092,"endMs":5560252,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":731,"startMs":5560292,"endMs":5567012,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And now, you know, we've been talking for several hours, I'm-- I think I'm getting a little closer there. But then I read what you wrote-","isAd":false},{"idx":732,"startMs":5567052,"endMs":5567132,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":733,"startMs":5567192,"endMs":5572272,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... where you're just like, \"Well, look around, dude. Everything that you see in a city and a civilization-","isAd":false},{"idx":734,"startMs":5572312,"endMs":5572312,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":735,"startMs":5572312,"endMs":5574852,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... has either been grown, mined, or manufactured.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":736,"startMs":5574992,"endMs":5575272,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":737,"startMs":5575292,"endMs":5578292,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And so I'm like, oh, he like is-- you're into details like you were describing-","isAd":false},{"idx":738,"startMs":5578312,"endMs":5578332,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":739,"startMs":5578332,"endMs":5579532,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... the Uber sign-up flow earlier.","isAd":false},{"idx":740,"startMs":5579552,"endMs":5579752,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":741,"startMs":5580172,"endMs":5582072,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But you zoomed all the way out.","isAd":false},{"idx":742,"startMs":5582132,"endMs":5582292,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":743,"startMs":5582792,"endMs":5587292,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So it's like I'm gonna start with the material constituents of everything that exists in the world.","isAd":false},{"idx":744,"startMs":5587392,"endMs":5629252,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So when you look around you, everything around you is grown or mined, manufactured and moved, and that's how we look at the world. And then you go, well, when you think about physical AI, the automation of movement and action in the physical world, you look at the what I call the physical AI tech stack. Real estate's part of that for the reasons I've, I've described as it relates to food. If you didn't have the industrial scale, what I call high infrastructure, heavy-duty energy, heavy-duty mechanical systems 'cause you're extracting air and then tempering it and pushing it back in. Real estate is a big part. What is a mining company? It's actually real estate.","isAd":false},{"idx":745,"startMs":5629952,"endMs":5674232,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So the ability to take land and turn it into pro-productive pro-progress, essentially, is a underappreciated and not understood thing, and it is most definitely a big part of the what I would call the physical AI tech stack. You go like look at, you know, you can look at Tesla and all the things Elon's doing, like it's obvious that real estate is his jam, or certainly his team's jam. He doesn't talk about it as much, but it's a big part of what happens. He's got a freaking city. He's starting a freaking city, right? You know, the head of HR is, is basically the mayor of a city that he's building. You know what I mean? So it's a really important thing.","isAd":false},{"idx":746,"startMs":5674272,"endMs":5718172,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"But also when you, you know, you can go further than that, which is everything we're seeing in technology, you know, a lot of times we talk about super intelligence is sort of the function of I need to have energy, and I need to have minerals at the very base. Lots of energy. We talk about data centers now in gigawatts or megawatts, you know. So I need to have energy, and I need to have the minerals, and then I have those two things, and I can get super intelligence eventually, working those things hard. But where does the energy come from? You're like, \"Oh, it comes from the sun.\" Okay, but how do you capture it? Goes back to minerals. Like","isAd":false},{"idx":747,"startMs":5719552,"endMs":5743052,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"land is the whole damn thing. So there's a really interesting perspective about how land plays a role in the future of physical automation, physical AI, um, and just, um, autonomy in the physical world is, is very dependent upon it, and that's why mining is so interesting.","isAd":false},{"idx":748,"startMs":5743152,"endMs":5747772,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You're not owning the mines, correct? You're just making them more productive with gainfully employed robots?","isAd":false},{"idx":749,"startMs":5747992,"endMs":5748452,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Correct.","isAd":false},{"idx":750,"startMs":5749072,"endMs":5749192,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":751,"startMs":5749552,"endMs":5751011,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"What we call gainfully employed robots.","isAd":false},{"idx":752,"startMs":5751032,"endMs":5751992,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"This is hilarious, by the way.","isAd":false},{"idx":753,"startMs":5752052,"endMs":5790592,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes. But it's like because right now, you know, you know, look, I do think of course humanoids are gonna be gainfully employed. They're not there yet, but they'll get there. But right now they're-- the demos are dancing and martial arts. You know, I talk about the Beijing. There's a, a, a, a humanoid Olympics in Beijing, and they're, they're doing a marathon. You're like, \"Okay, they're not quite there. They're gonna get there.\" But I kept thinking like, \"Man, imagine if you put wheels on them.\" Right? And this gets back to humanoids being good at certain things and not others, and sort of having a purpose-built machine for the task is important.","isAd":false},{"idx":754,"startMs":5791612,"endMs":5800712,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So wait, you said two very interesting things. Your life's work is digitizing the physical world, and then you're saying for atoms you're gonna attack one industry at a time.","isAd":false},{"idx":755,"startMs":5801092,"endMs":5801332,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm-hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":756,"startMs":5802112,"endMs":5807812,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Physical world far outstrips the digital world, therefore, you almost stumbled into or picked, you didn't stumble into-","isAd":false},{"idx":757,"startMs":5808092,"endMs":5808092,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":758,"startMs":5808092,"endMs":5814112,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... you picked an infinite game. So there's no limit to what you-- this company can expand into.","isAd":false},{"idx":759,"startMs":5814432,"endMs":5853092,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Look, I, I have a little bit of an issue of infinite, but like it's a very-- It goes very far. Like the dream, like, okay, look, the mission for mining is more productive mines to power Earth's industries. 'Cause we can go to a gold mine right now, go to a gold mine CEO and ask whether he wants twenty percent more gold per year. Why? Because when you automate it, that's the output, and you make it cheaper to go to other places and even get more gold out of that mine that you wouldn't even get before. So it's getting more per year.","isAd":false},{"idx":760,"startMs":5853412,"endMs":5861052,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"It's getting more than you otherwise would in the totality of that mine, plus being able to go and do more mines than you otherwise would because the OPEX is so much lower.","isAd":false},{"idx":761,"startMs":5861412,"endMs":5866572,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"But if you're increasing the raw materials, then you're also increasing overall industry in the world, period.","isAd":false},{"idx":762,"startMs":5866912,"endMs":5866912,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":763,"startMs":5866932,"endMs":5871892,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And then you could then go and automate- And enhance those industries as well, right?","isAd":false},{"idx":764,"startMs":5871972,"endMs":5890392,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"The point is, is that if you get really good at minerals and materials and land, you get good at automating making land productive and powering progress with land, it's sort of the lever that moves the world.","isAd":false},{"idx":765,"startMs":5890992,"endMs":5891472,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"E-exactly.","isAd":false},{"idx":766,"startMs":5892392,"endMs":5930612,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So if you automate the thing that is the lever that moves the world, it's like the ultra lever. And it's just kind of fun. It's just actually cool. If you see a picture of a, you know, a machine that loaded is over two million pounds, and it's the size of a building, and it's autonomously moving around, pretty cool. The dream, and like this is like it's really Elon willing, really, but, like, one day he's gonna be sending, he's gonna be sending missions to asteroids to mine them. Yeah, maybe we can help out in some way. That'd be a lot of fun.","isAd":false},{"idx":767,"startMs":5931012,"endMs":5933112,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You have mining, you have food.","isAd":false},{"idx":768,"startMs":5933952,"endMs":5974072,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Transport. And the thing we call it, the mission there is wheel base for robots. So if you have specialized machines that, that m- that act and move in the physical world, that's what we do for a living, you have to have wheel base. You have to automate how they move. You know, some people think about ride-sharing when they think about this, but there's just a lot of... There's a lot of things you're not thinking about. You know, like I was talking to one of the large food suppliers in the US. They supply all the food to the, um, uh, to the restaurants. They're spending three billion dollars a year","isAd":false},{"idx":769,"startMs":5975912,"endMs":6014132,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"on the labor that moves the palettes on forklifts. This like, this just like a little drop in the bucket of all the things that are moving, right? Um, but what about freight? What about parcel delivery? What about, um, food delivery? So like we talked about that on the food side. Once I knew I had to get into autonomy to complete the food story, this is when the Adams thing sort of came together beyond just food.","isAd":false},{"idx":770,"startMs":6014712,"endMs":6026292,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"One of the things that I was talking to Daniel Ek about you that he finds most fascinating about you is your propensity to build a ton of separate companies inside of one company. You did this obviously at Uber.","isAd":false},{"idx":771,"startMs":6026612,"endMs":6026812,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":772,"startMs":6027632,"endMs":6028812,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"You're doing it again at Adams.","isAd":false},{"idx":773,"startMs":6028912,"endMs":6029072,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":774,"startMs":6029332,"endMs":6038512,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Is that just your natural-- Is that what you meant, like your business soulmate? You're just like, \"I don't wanna work on just one product or one business.\" Like, you want a conglomerate. Like, h-how do you think about this?","isAd":false},{"idx":775,"startMs":6038572,"endMs":6066512,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I mean, this goes back to, no, you don't... That's not how it works. It's, um, but it is... Remember, the con- only constraint to our imagination is management capacity. So then the question is twofold: Do you have an imagination, and is it any good? But if you do have an imagination and it's good, you're gonna have interesting ideas that should happen. There's many ideas that maybe either shouldn't or somebody else should do, but there's gonna be many ideas that you should do.","isAd":false},{"idx":776,"startMs":6067152,"endMs":6071352,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"So what does the actual organization inside of Adams looks like with all, look like with all these different businesses?","isAd":false},{"idx":777,"startMs":6071372,"endMs":6071472,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":778,"startMs":6071512,"endMs":6075572,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Like, does every business have a CEO? They report directly to you. Like, how, how did you actually structure this?","isAd":false},{"idx":779,"startMs":6075572,"endMs":6118192,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You have a business unit line leader, and then you might even have sub-business unit leaders as well. Um, you really try to empower and, you know, empower them to do their thing. That is, you know, I sort of look at that as alignment upfront, accountability on the back end. So what are we trying to accomplish? How are we gonna try to accomplish it? What do we view as risky, and what's sort of no-brainer? And how do we do accountability as we go? And then sort of approach it with like a management style, which I call problem solver in chief, which is I spend my time on the most impactful problems that are not already being solved.","isAd":false},{"idx":780,"startMs":6118932,"endMs":6119952,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's how you dedicate your time.","isAd":false},{"idx":781,"startMs":6120252,"endMs":6120392,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":782,"startMs":6120572,"endMs":6122352,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Is that the directive that you give to everybody that's-","isAd":false},{"idx":783,"startMs":6122552,"endMs":6122552,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes.","isAd":false},{"idx":784,"startMs":6122572,"endMs":6123192,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's... Okay.","isAd":false},{"idx":785,"startMs":6123232,"endMs":6128672,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yes. So I've got a certain number of hours per day, but that's a tiny fraction of the problems that need to be solved.","isAd":false},{"idx":786,"startMs":6128692,"endMs":6129872,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out, like how do you-","isAd":false},{"idx":787,"startMs":6129891,"endMs":6146712,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"So that flows down. Now everybody's got their s- their, their, their remit, let's say, so they solve problems in this area. So it's flowing down, but they are the problem solver in chief deputized for their area, all the way down to the bottom.","isAd":false},{"idx":788,"startMs":6147052,"endMs":6160412,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Do you still put an emphasis, I've heard you speak about this in the past, an emphasis of hiring and empowering young people? Is this business different than like when you were launching new cities in Uber, for example, where you gave a lot of responsibility to, you know, aggressive young people?","isAd":false},{"idx":789,"startMs":6160452,"endMs":6200652,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Well, okay, again, so it, it, there's really interesting ways to do it. I, I, I sort of have this, this concept I call the line in sort of the maybe the frameworks of finding the line. So there's a line. On one side is order, lots of structure. Sorry, sorry, structure. Like, as you, as you pull away further, further back into order, you have lots of rules, lots of structure, lots of process, and eventually lots of bureaucracy. And if you go too far back from that line, you're going slow and people are bummed. And if you go to the other side of the line, which is chaos,","isAd":false},{"idx":790,"startMs":6202772,"endMs":6246880,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"lack of rules, lack of process, lack of structure, and as you go deeper and deeper and deeper into chaos, you also get to a place where you're going slow and people are bummed. So that line between order and chaos is innovation at speed and at scale, and the job of every leader is to find that line, and it's not in two dimensions. It's like in eighty dimensions, okay? And the best leaders are able to find that. And, you know, the probably the most approachable way to describe this is the fewest number of rules while staying out of chaos is the, is the approachable way to describe this. But you go to back to like launch at Uber.","isAd":false},{"idx":791,"startMs":6249140,"endMs":6291580,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"You could think of it as like, okay, there's a bunch of twenty-three-year-olds launching cities. What happened was at the beginning, the first twenty, thirty cities, I was deeply involved in whether that city was gonna get launched. But what happened was somebody go out, \"Hey, go launch a city, make something out of nothing.\" And there'd be some kind of playbook there, but a lot of it was undefined. But nothing would actually launch until it got to a pricing call, 'cause pricing in the transportation space is the sum of all strategy. And so the pricing call then goes, well, what's the regulatory? What's the car type that you're gonna use because of that regulatory?","isAd":false},{"idx":792,"startMs":6292100,"endMs":6336660,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"What is the average wage in the city? Because that's on the driver's side, and that's part of the cost, of course. You basically go through every aspect of the city that relates to transportation. How long does it take to get around? Like, where are people going? You ultimately get to a price, but it means you have to understand everything and how you get to that price matters. So in the first twenty cities, I was on a pricing call. In some of those cities, man, it would be like eight pricing calls. It could be like eight hours, ten hours of pricing calls before we launched London, as an example. But I never solved the same problem twice. Once we solved it, then it became part of the playbook, and eventually we get to s-city twenty and that pricing call takes five minutes.","isAd":false},{"idx":793,"startMs":6337440,"endMs":6379300,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I stopped going to them. Didn't matter anymore. But the key that I was trying to get to is you have a twenty-three-year-old who then can go and launch a city. Even at the beginning, when I was still involved in that pricing call, they wouldn't see me till the pricing call, but they knew I was gonna be at that pricing call. The one rule was, you can't launch until I say yes at that pricing call. So they would come ready to play at that pricing call, and they knew that if they didn't, I'd be like, \"No,\" and then they suck. And so they would put everything they in-- into making that successful, which means all the other things that they're doing before are gonna be organized towards doing it right because they wanna win.","isAd":false},{"idx":794,"startMs":6380820,"endMs":6392780,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"And so now I've got one rule, which is that pricing call, the fewest number of rules while staying out of chaos, that if you didn't have that one rule, you now have twenty-three-year-olds running around doing crazy shit.","isAd":false},{"idx":795,"startMs":6393820,"endMs":6402640,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's awesome. D- it made me think of another line that I love that you put on the Adams website where you said that chaos was the law of nature and order was the dream of man.","isAd":false},{"idx":796,"startMs":6402920,"endMs":6403120,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Hmm.","isAd":false},{"idx":797,"startMs":6404520,"endMs":6413760,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"My interpretation of that line now, having spoken to you about this, it's like I feel that you're imposing order on the chaos of the physical world. That's what your company's trying to do.","isAd":false},{"idx":798,"startMs":6414060,"endMs":6455900,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"I almost think of it as negentropic, which means and it's kind of a... Uh, you could get into a very interesting sort of, uh, uh, very, uh, I don't wanna say, y- very energetic debate with certain people about negative entropy. But civilization is an attempt to locally slow down entropy and maybe even go negative. It's building structure against the nature towards chaos. That's what civilization is. And so Adams is essentially the structure to defend","isAd":false},{"idx":799,"startMs":6457880,"endMs":6461640,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"civilization and move it forward into progress.","isAd":false},{"idx":800,"startMs":6462280,"endMs":6473380,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"There's another line when you, when you speak, there's a lot of things that you say that remind me of Rockefeller. Uh, and when in the early days of the oil refining industry, he used that word that he thought it was a chaotic industry.","isAd":false},{"idx":801,"startMs":6473640,"endMs":6473640,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":802,"startMs":6473700,"endMs":6474760,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"It was. He's at the very beginning.","isAd":false},{"idx":803,"startMs":6474820,"endMs":6475000,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":804,"startMs":6475040,"endMs":6476400,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"This is when the oil industry, the entire-","isAd":false},{"idx":805,"startMs":6476540,"endMs":6476620,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":false},{"idx":806,"startMs":6476840,"endMs":6479760,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... cons-- it's solely concentrated in Pennsylvania, for God's sake.","isAd":false},{"idx":807,"startMs":6479780,"endMs":6480240,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah. Yeah.","isAd":false},{"idx":808,"startMs":6480260,"endMs":6483840,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"And he goes, \"I'm going to impor-- impose order on this chaos.\"","isAd":false},{"idx":809,"startMs":6483920,"endMs":6483920,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Mm.","isAd":false},{"idx":810,"startMs":6483940,"endMs":6484860,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"That's a line he used.","isAd":false},{"idx":811,"startMs":6485100,"endMs":6504540,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Progress is sort of the organization and structuring of the world towards human happiness and liberty and transcendence in some fashion. That's how I view what we're doing at maybe the very highest level.","isAd":false},{"idx":812,"startMs":6504840,"endMs":6506680,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I think that's an awesome place to close, Travis.","isAd":true},{"idx":813,"startMs":6507360,"endMs":6507400,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah.","isAd":true},{"idx":814,"startMs":6507440,"endMs":6508720,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"Man, I mean, it really means a lot to me-","isAd":true},{"idx":815,"startMs":6508740,"endMs":6508820,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah","isAd":true},{"idx":816,"startMs":6508820,"endMs":6509460,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"... you taking the time.","isAd":true},{"idx":817,"startMs":6509740,"endMs":6509960,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Yeah. Thank you.","isAd":true},{"idx":818,"startMs":6509960,"endMs":6510900,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I appreciate it, man. Thanks.","isAd":true},{"idx":819,"startMs":6510940,"endMs":6511160,"speaker":"Travis Kalanick","text":"Great.","isAd":true},{"idx":820,"startMs":6512180,"endMs":6530620,"speaker":"David Senra","text":"I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review, and make sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over four hundred biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.","isAd":true}]}